Christian Mysticism | An Intimate Talk With TruthSeekah – Hosted by Caleb Bowles

Christian Mysticism | An Intimate Talk With TruthSeekah - Hosted by Caleb Bowless
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=caevKcHyRhY
Transcript source: YouTube captions

cool
well welcome ma'am to the podcast and um
i yeah i really appreciate
you being on here um
i feel like it's just it's timely um
for for where we're at and and what the
lord's doing and i know that
having you on here um is gonna is gonna
help a lot of people
in the questions they're asking and
we're talking a little bit about that
before obviously before we started
recording
but i know that um the journey you've
been on
um is is pioneering and um
you've really i feel like you've really
from what i can tell listening to your
podcast and i'm still just getting to
know you but you've you've cracked
something open and you've gone into
territory so to speak that um not a lot
of people are comfortable to go in there
and um
you know like you're you've you've kept
some of the
the simplicity and the the fundamental
um things i'm not talking about
fundamentalism i'm talking about some of
the fundamentals of who god is and his
nature intact
in that process and i've seen a lot of
people
go into spiritual territory and not come
out you know and like get lost in there
so
um yeah just really appreciate you you
coming on here um
just just for the listeners you have a
podcast you're a um you're an artist
you're a rapper it's all right is there
anything else that you do that you'd
like to um just fill people in with
yeah uh yeah i'm a
hip-hop artist and have a podcast i have
a book i do guided meditations and
a little bit of everything really i feel
like the message stays the same but i
just try to find new ways to articulate
it and new new mediums to get get it out
so still looking for creative ways to to
tap in to wherever people are
listening to right you know whatever
they're tapping into so
so many to choose from you know
it's awesome man um
yeah it'd be cool
um to start just to hear a little bit of
your background um and just
what your journey has been like um
coming to know the lord
um and
yeah just to get a little bit of a grid
you know like um
how your interest was peaked and like
you know your your moments of awakening
and and some of those sort of important
points so just be cool um to hear some
of that just okay
for sure man and if you have any
questions to go back and you know want
to want to crack some of this stuff up
open that i mentioned just because i'll
try to i'll try to breeze through it you
know and there's just a lot of details
but um
i was born in uh houma louisiana and um
there's a lot of
witchcraft there there's a lot of it's
common
to to do candle magic and to uh to do
curses on people and stuff like that
like you know my grandmother my mom
they call their neighbors if somebody
ripped them off or owed them money and
didn't pay and they would ask each other
for candles hey you got a you got a
black candle i need to borrow one
so-and-so owes me money and it was just
like this little
it was just kind of common little stuff
like that and and uh my mom and where is
sorry i know you just started but i'm
interested like where that
where that originates from some of that
like
voodoo and catholicism you know so
they're like i feel like those are one
and the same um you know just that
just a lot of the names are changed or
whatever so candle magic and ritual and
and those kind of things and and so in
new orleans those are both really big
the voodoo capital and
and a lot of that stuff what what uh new
orleans is known for
so a lot of it comes from like yeah
right you have voodoo tradition and and
um
slaves practice voodoo in new orleans as
well
so
um yeah then again you know
what you would say that
the light side of it would be
catholicism in burning candles and you
know burning candles and praying to the
saints and those kind of things so
just little stuff like that you know
that was common
and um yeah
so but then the atmosphere too like my
mom and dad i just remember ever since i
was little they'd throw big parties and
there'd be all types of people coming
over who's you know
drunk and passing out mid conversation
and a lot of different energies in our
home you know strangers
and um i feel like
i was visited when i was four by these
shadow beings
and
and uh woke up one in the middle of the
night being pinned down to my bed and
with two beings on each side of my
shoulders and i didn't know if i was too
scared to speak or if i couldn't speak i
know definitely i was too scared but i
don't know if i couldn't if i was mute
because i didn't know i didn't want them
to know that i was up you know and so
um
that that right there you know with
something
pivotal something monumental in my in my
life was
you know
four years old and then
10 11 years old having sleepovers with
cousins and we're telling ghost stories
and then i'm
weaving this encounter and hey has
anybody ever
heard of this have you ever woke up and
seen something in your room and and most
most would say no but every now and then
would say somebody said yeah those are
those are demons or those are witches
and yeah my dad had one you know that
woke him up and you know and those kind
of things and and it would just pique my
interest in in that of having that
encounter so
um
yeah and that would that would you know
go to maybe my choice of movies you know
and the horror and
occult genre as a kid
being really intrigued in all that
aliens ufos uh scaring each other um
so that was monumental for me for just
like
you know steering the course of my life
and
then picking up witchcraft books as a
teenager you know picking up uh books on
the occult and listening to dark music
and stuff and so um i got into the the
occult as a teenager got into uh
um wicca and and satanism and
whatever we can find the necronomicon
any books like that and uh
ended up uh just doing that
a little bit just kind of dabbling
and then
um i ended up going to a prayer meeting
in 1998
the guy who was
my mom was dating a guy that we were
living with and his son was in bible
college and he was like an older brother
type he wanted to pick me up and bring
me to to play basketball and those kind
of things go swimming and all that and
then i remember him always inviting me
to church and never wanted to go to
church because i wasn't into that he'd
invite me to prayer meetings wasn't into
that
then he invited me to
one again and i told him no to a prayer
meeting i said yeah i don't want to go
and he said well you might want to go to
this one there's going to be a prophet's
going to be there
i said well what's a prophet and he said
a prophet was like a christian psychic
and so i was like yeah that that that
sounds interesting like i'll go check
that out you know so i ended up going to
this prayer meeting in 1998 and
being in that atmosphere with all of
these people in a home meeting where
people were like listening to worship
music and they had their eyes closed and
some of them were crying and
lifting their hands and it was just a
really beautiful presence of peace in
the room
and um uh one of the guys who was there
came and sat down on the couch next to
me and asked me if i wanted to uh ask
jesus to forgive me of my sins
and i i told him yeah you know it was
one of those things where i like i
didn't want him not to forgive me sure i
want him to forgive me he says all right
brother just pray with me lord jesus is
coming in my heart cleanse me of all my
sins i acknowledge the work that you did
on the cross and so i prayed that that
prayer and i i meant it and when i did i
felt
this
beautiful fire come into me and go
throughout my whole body
and felt like it was burning up and
cleansing out all the wrong that i had
ever done all of my sins all my life the
lies i've ever told all the stuff i did
in secret that i was ashamed of you know
all of that like instantly and i began
to shake and tremble and cry and it was
the baptism of the holy spirit upon
profession and uh nobody prayed for me
to receive it it was just like as i
asked him to come into my life it was
like this overwhelming fire come upon me
and um i was i was uh 13
when that happened and 1998
and um
so i only did that for a couple months
now we we got
that's all we did you know we did church
meetings and prayer meetings and
christian concerts for a couple months
because i was new to this town i didn't
know nobody except the christians that i
started going to church with but uh once
school let in
i ended up going to school and just
immediately getting into like the wrong
crowd the people who were doing drugs
and listening to satanic music and stuff
like that so within the first two weeks
i was you know
backsliding if you will at the time and
uh
then i ended up you know getting back
into
the occult and and going deeper and
deeper and deeper into it
and uh ended up meeting a warlock who
um
would teach us a lot of stuff he'd have
these huge parties and i would pick his
brain about the occult like everybody's
partying hanging out and i'm just like
picking his brain
and he's telling me all of these
interactions with entities and stuff
that he's learned and experiences and
stuff like that and i'm just like i'm
eating it up i love it
and so he's teaching us how to do little
stuff here and there and just giving us
wisdom and stuff and we knew him for a
while and um
i ended up um
stealing something from him a couple
maybe a couple months later a year later
something like that and he ended up
summoning summoning a elemental spirit
that
had a he did a protection spell on his
belongings and this entity like
formed up out of the nothingness the
ether and it was blacker than
the darkest shade of night and it
appeared and it looked like a eight foot
tall camel and ran past me and my cousin
and knocked us down
um and so this he did this he did this
on the spot like he summoned this being
essentially this is something he did you
know that's just the part of someone
with the long story well just to set it
up a little bit more um
is uh i was living out of town in
louisiana and my mom dropped me off in
alabama for the weekend for my birthday
to hang out with all my old friends
and i would just stay with a friend each
night and then that sunday night she was
going to come pick me up so friday night
saturday night all the friends that i
stayed with each night i stole
stuff from them i stole t-shirts video
games controllers because i knew that my
mom was coming and going to bring me
back
it's about two and a half hours three
hours away where i was living at the
time
and so i had this duffel bag i'm just
stealing stuff from them i go stay with
a friend and then when it's time to
leave
i just when they turn their head just i
got a big duffel bag full of stuff and i
can't wait to go back because got all
this stuff and so um my mom ended up
having car problems and couldn't come
pick me up so like sunday night came
around hey you need to find somewhere to
stay i'll come get you monday morning i
was like oh man
so we went and stayed in my girlfriend's
tree house at the time
for the night and then next day rolled
around same thing
car's not fixed yet i'll be there
tomorrow we got to find somewhere to
stay so we ended up staying with the
with the warlock me and my cousin
and so i thought my mom was coming the
next day so i stole from him uh he had a
dungeons and dragons video game and i
put it in my duffel bag that was
actually across the street in somebody's
closet i had it hidden under a bunch of
stuff so that when my mom came i'm going
across the street grabbing the bag see
you guys later you know
and um
so
we're over there at his house he they
called him pops and um or dad he was
just the older guy and just tons of kids
teenagers partying drinking smoking all
that stuff so there's all these people
over there
and we're sitting in the living room and
um
there's a bunch of other older guys
there that i've never seen before and
they're all older than everybody else
and they're wearing like all black and
we're sitting like almost in a circle in
the living room and i'm looking at them
and
somebody opens the door one of my
friends opens the door comes in and
hands the video game that i stole to the
warlock he hands it to him and i'm like
sitting across from him
and
he hands him the game and i'm like oh
and they look around and they say okay
and uh and i knew that these guys were
into like they're into like some really
dark gang stuff
like uh
like they mixed the occult in with gang
culture and saying gangster disciples
and reading the bible upside down and so
they weren't just witches they were
gangsters too you know and everybody was
in in the gang
and um
so one at a time one walked to the back
another one got up walked to the back
and i'm like scared you know we're
fixing to get jumped or tied up or
something we're gonna get beat up
and all the witches got up and went to
the back and i looked at my cousin and
said hey we gotta go
he's like why there's a bunch of girls
here and it's you know it's like seven
o'clock it's like we're about to party
you know i was like nah we gotta go now
it's like i said man just get up and go
outside so we walk outside and i told
him what happened
he's like oh man
so we go to this uh car where there's a
guy talking to a girl at his car and i
said hey man can you give us a ride down
the road uh i need to get out of here i
got got somewhere i got to be and you
know so he's like sure man jump in so we
get in the car with this guy he drops us
off down the street and we're gonna stay
the night at my girlfriend's treehouse
again
but um you know she was living with her
parents so we weren't supposed to be
there so she dropped us off down the
road and we get ready to walk
to
um her driveway and there's like a tree
line that we're kind of hiding behind
until we can get a clear shot and run to
it
and um
but when he dropped us off we're looking
and there's like this light that's
floating through the yard
and it's almost like mesmerizing us and
i actually thought it was her dad with a
flashlight but we watched it probably 30
or 45 minutes until the sun started
going down even more and so we we're
like okay we gotta we got to go ahead
and run for it i think we got to clear
so we go around the side of the tree
line to this huge open field
and when we do that's when the encounter
happened this uh
uh like i said being look eight foot
tall camel is the only thing i can you
know it was so fast you know and it was
just a huge shadow just ran past us
knocked me and him down and screamed and
then vanished into thin air whenever it
passed us
and so we got up shook and like man what
the hell was that and so we ran to the
tree house or whatever and uh my mom
ended up coming like a few days later um
but after that like
you would think that that would like
keep me away from nicole hey this is
real don't play this ain't nothing to
play with but me i'm like
oh yeah i can get good like him and i
can learn how to summon these entities
and to go attack my enemies and protect
my belongings you know so they got up
and went to the back and did the spell
at the back of the trailer as you can
see there's also i think there's this
thing in us that
is actually we come from we come from a
different place like we
we're wired where we're created for the
transcendent as well as the mundane but
we are and so
if um
whenever we see it i think even you know
at a young age as well where you there
isn't maybe an example of of walking
like christ or whatever like you you're
looking for
your heart is looking for that
eternity's in your heart you're looking
for phenomena you're looking for the
transcendent so even if it manifests in
a way that's got a negative
um motive behind it it's still feeding
something i think in in us
um so anyway yeah it's just yeah well i
mean you're right i mean in the the
movies in hollywood you know caters to
that now there there's some beauty
beautiful movies and stuff that that
cater to some beautiful spirituality as
well you know in hollywood but
um even with that there's no tutorials
there's no
yeah um there's no uh school of the
prophets you know like there was in the
scriptures and and people to teach you
or
um in school you you even told that it's
not real that it even hollywood is just
you know your imagination and and even
those encounters that you've had or
weren't real you know
and um
so yeah and man everyone's everyone's
had encounters as well it's crazy like i
was talking to someone about this
recently like you um because we used to
do a lot of like you know street
evangelism and things like that and
i remember just like
whenever you ask someone and you say
have you ever had any kind of like
supernatural experience it's like i
don't think there's one person that i've
ever met and asked that question who
doesn't say oh man when i was five years
old i had this dream or i got woken up
in the night or i saw this ghost or
whatever it's like everyone
has um has experienced that i think
there's this cognitive dissonance thing
you know where they shut it out
um to try and cope
with the fact that it's real and that
that it's there it's beyond what they
can handle
yeah and being able to label it too you
know of what it is you know
um yeah as if any of our labels are are
correct you know um i can tell you what
i think it was what it looked like do i
know
i was just talking to a friend today
even about the term holy spirit you know
this this essence that that is inside of
us and outside of us and communing with
us and we call
it him
the holy spirit and as if that's the a
name first name holy last name spirit
but it just means a different spirit
like a set apart
um sacred a sacred a sacred spirit and
we just named him hey sacred spirit you
know kind of thing
um and we interact with it by that name
is that like in conception like the name
of
you know father son and the holy spirit
you know i don't think i don't think so
but but it became a way that we get to
interact with it by by labeling it and
giving it a name you know um
so being able to label things is uh is
it's you know it's huge for a lot of
people what is it and we need to put it
in a box and put a label on it and um
and everything is really is in the air
you know for for sure the more we break
down the scriptures
it's fun i love it um it's it's exciting
but
like the words don't mean what we think
they mean and we give it these names and
you know i'm big on the terms angel
angel and demon or whatever
and an angel just means a messenger and
we think that angels are good guys
demons are bad guys
and and these are just beings or
entities or people
who carry a message a message for you
yeah and what i've learned is that the
demons carry messages as well and so uh
and there's so much nuance in between
that what kind of angel
you know an elemental spirit an
elemental angel a fire angel a seraphim
a cherubim a malachim a rephaim like you
know one of the four living creatures a
watcher what type of angel
um
so there's so much just in these words
that we get that
we're okay just saying angel and demon
yesterday i saw an angel brother an
angel came to me okay what kind
what did it look like you know what did
it say you know what was the message
well i don't think there was a message
just let me see it
okay what was communicated after you
know that kind of thing and so
i love just that whole conversation and
kind of like having the rug pulled out
from under us in a good way though you
know not to like aha or to rain on your
parade but that we just go deeper into
the mystique and in the mystery of god
yeah it's true and
and um you're so right man like we
we our labels create a sense of
familiarity and with familiarity is then
comfort so we can handle it
and if you if you follow that train of
thought back it's a lot of it is to do
with fear and control often
um and not not even in like a heavy way
but often just because it's it is
scary to live a mystery at first it's
scary to fully entrust
yourself
to um
to the love of god in the sense that you
you're
you're preserved by his love you
he's keeping you he's protecting you
he's the one who um sustains you
maintains you protects you
we the the um the mind always wants to
make sense of things so that we can have
some kind of sense of stability yeah and
i think you're you're kind of touching
on some of these
principles of what true mysticism even
is
it's like a mystic to me or one
characteristic of a mystic is it's a
person who's willing to abandon
themselves
um to to be held and to live in the
awareness of their union with god it's
to
not
um allow the mind even our faculties of
comprehension to limit like to constrict
this um this expanse of who god is and
that takes a it takes man it takes
practice it takes like a deepening
trust um as we follow
um holy spirit or the spirit of truth or
the spirit of holiness or whatever like
you said before you know we follow this
this being you know who created all
things into the into the blackness into
the cloud
and um
you're right and it and it can be very
um
disruptive
and
daunting when you first start to realize
like your mind
is trying to make sense of things and
you can actually become a witness of
that
and then you can go a step further
and sort of like enter into this place
of depth where your your deeper
faculties start to connect and commune
um but it means often surrendering some
of those sort of like um
what do you call training wheels you
know
as as you enter into that that darkness
that deeper place i don't mean darkness
is an evil but
you know what you know what i mean
unfamiliarity that's it
yeah because we familiarize ourselves
you know even in the darkness like if
you wake up and
you know you know where the walls at
kind of thing and you even though you're
in darkness you're familiar
on how to you know maneuver in that
darkness and yeah again there's that
place of like i know where i i'm at i
know who i am
i can name myself i know how to get out
of here i know how to find the light
kind of thing too
um
yeah but no it's because it's scary for
sure you know especially when we're
trying to make sense of everything and
um and we found something that brings us
comfort and stability and then
you know we've given our lives over to
it and then
you know
not just our lives but our eternity over
to it you know that i'm well given
i'm signed up for this and i'm going to
fight it fight for it and defend it you
know
here and there um so for people you know
we'll get defensive you know when you
challenge
um those beliefs and and we all do and
it's like that fight or flight um
because we want to have a sense of
familiarity even if we're a hundred
percent wrong
it doesn't matter it brings it this
belief brings us comfort
and um and it works for us and many
people won't move
mo move beyond that and that's fine you
know because
um
it never stops you know that you have to
have a place of comfort a place of
i can still touch bottom or
at least of that still touching bottom
is that god's with me
you know he's never left me i can swim
now um
yeah you know so that's the comfort
because that's his name that's his name
right the comforter
you know that's his name
what his name is title in his role
you know he's to comfort us in a in a
wicked world in a a world of confusion
and chaos we need stability stability's
comfort even if it's within our own
misunderstandings
to know that you know
that we're loved and we're going to be
taken care of no matter what
the situation the circumstance looks
looks like everyone needs that and
that's what we have to applaud religion
and christianity because it provides
that for many people and it's true it's
real it's tangible you know
yeah
i agree
i think um
yeah it's it's true it's real and it's
providing that
there's also this aspect of like
um
you know this seems like a sharp um turn
like to sort of talk about this but
there's
also you know and this is something i've
been thinking about a lot especially in
the current climate that we're in is
there is a lot of division
that is in the body of christ and there
is a lot of like dualism there's a lot
of like um
um yeah just division like in a time
where
um you you would think that wisdom would
trickle down from heaven in a united
voice all the nuance of um the sound of
many waters you know would start to rush
down
and um
in this in this current time that we're
in it's like
it feels sometimes
this is and this is just from my
perspective like it's it seemed hard to
really
um find a clarity in terms of like what
is
the wisdom of god for right now and i
know there's a simplicity to that as
well um in terms of um be still and know
he is god he will be exalted amongst the
nations and there's we can draw from the
wisdom of scriptures and things like
that but there is this division that
um
i feel like it's what's kept the church
powerless for century after century and
it's it's to me it's one of the ways
that the enemy
levens himself in
is um
is to create division so that we would
at the full strength of who christ's
body is
apart from the comfort of i agree with
this doctrine or i agree with that
doctrine or i'm part of this tradition
of christianity or that tradition of
christianity or whatever you know and um
you know for for modern evangelicals or
protestants it's like they would look at
a catholic person
and you know like i know protestants who
just who would say would go as far as to
say they're not even they're not even
saved they're not even yeah
which is just because catholics say that
about them you know that you have to
yeah we'll totally
be born on you know born again under
their
their church
they don't recognize any other church
every other church is apostate
but that's every church you know that
that you know
you're talking about you know
whether it's overt or not yeah you're
right it's like if we
if we were serious about not creating
unity but acknowledging we are in union
whether we like it or not the scary
thing is that we are already in union i
think that's actually what we try and
run from or hide from well that's why
i don't have a problem with those guys
anymore you know and um and i appreciate
them yeah and i'm not trying to win them
either
you know i'm not trying to win the
catholic i'm not trying to win the
baptist somebody listen if this working
for you man especially the climate
helping you to maintain especially the
climate keep on more power to you um but
i really feel that there's a balance in
the force like there must be a balance
and and so um
one thing i have
uh noticed in the christian mystics
mystical circle is there is this there
is a diversity and there is room
for diversity and many different um
uh groups that are forming and it's
growing it really is you know the
christian mystical movement um
and and we're choosing our battles
wisely you know um even if you don't
agree with it even if you think it's
wrong or you never
just listen i'll keep it to myself it's
working for them and and there has been
this beautiful camaraderie that you
don't have to like agree on all of the
far out stuff you can even be a skeptic
or critique it and it's all love you
know what i'm saying it's like because
we have so many different uh things that
you can choose from
to encounter god or or and there's
reasons why you believe certain things
and reasons why you're coming out of
certain things so
in the christian mystical movement it's
been beautiful because i've been able to
kind of see that diversity in the body
of christ
of look at all of these people who would
embrace me you know what i'm saying of
somebody like what i bring to the table
i'm stretching the limits for sure you
know and and i'm it's
hard a hard pill for a lot of people to
swallow a lot of stuff i bring to the
table um
but for others they're hungry they're
asking questions
too and they respect what i bring to the
table um it's just been awesome to see
that
but as far as on that massive scale of
the protestants and then the catholics
and then the health fire brimstone
people and then the heresy hunters like
all these people going at each other and
people critiquing each other it's like
uh
again i think
i i appreciate it because i they all
have a place in the body
you know that that i'm that i can see
and um because obviously one person may
be the hand one person may be the foot
those kind of things but
we have different functions
but
i i think would be silly for everybody
to be just like
me or be like the catholics or be all
the evangelicals who listen to the same
music listen to the same pastors in a
weird way we want that we want everybody
to go to todd white conferences or
everybody to believe this doctrine and
and and that's ever changing for the
mystic and for the for the real seeker
for sure that's it that's always
changing so you want to
i want you to believe with me at every
level i'm at
those ones that are more concrete right
the ones i've kind of just named
um i feel like they bring us balance to
critique and to make sure that
that we're walking in love
uh not arrogance or trying to win people
or
or whatever so i i got to a place where
i appreciate those people
you know and yeah and if they have
questions we're you know always here to
to try our best to answer questions and
stuff and what but the biggest the
biggest obstacle is to walk in unity and
love those people the only thing is they
would never it goes back to what we said
they they wouldn't recognize me or
any other
church outside of their church as even
being authentic born again
um
yeah but for me like
so that's the only thing we would
acknowledge them but they would never
acknowledge some of it's some of it's
changing within i know we think
catholicism
um since there was a council it's it's
um
i can't find it in my my mind right now
that was fairly recent
i'm talking like 50 years or something
and
catholics now acknowledge
other denominations as ecclesial
communities so that's what they call it
so they would say the authority the line
of authority because that's a lot of
what the argument's about the line of
authority is inherited you know it's
like it's stewarded by the bishops and
it can only come down that one line
and that's one of their main doctrinal
things that keeps them so strongly in
that tradition but they have actually
come to a place of accepting now that um
there are these ecclesial communities
that are you know
i guess i guess if they were honest and
they didn't they didn't say it in nice
language they would say are led by lay
people basically
whereas you've got like the eastern
orthodox and this is an interesting
topic as well
they seem to be more
strict in terms of um who's in and who's
out
and that sort of conversation yet their
theology
um you know they don't have like an
original sin theology they have um way
more
of a recognition of the oneness of of
all people
even even those outside of the faith you
know and that we're all actually
sustained and held together in christ
and there's a truth to that um so that's
a whole other conversation but i i used
to actually work
in a catholic church i did for a season
and the lord led me in this strange
journey and i ended up um
getting to know that culture and it was
really it was a growth journey for me
for the reasons that you're talking
about
um
because i was so comfortable in the part
of the body that i was
um i was known in and i was familiar
with yeah and then i i had to put aside
all these judgments because i knew that
there was a pathway that was opening up
that was um being opened up by the
spirit it was being created by the
spirit and i was just following that
path but all my conditioning would come
into my awareness and i had to kind of
work through that and deal with that and
you know things like the eucharist man
this is this is wild like
the eucharist so like the um and maybe
some of these people are listening
because they're actually friends of mine
and um track with me a little bit but
i worked in this church and they had
like a chapel and i remember going into
this prayer chapel and have the exposed
eucharist
and the priest said to me he goes um
once this wafer is blessed
he goes i'll die for this wafer. he goes
before it's blessed it's nothing it's a
cracker because once it's blessed i'll
die for it and it was so confronting to
me
you know because like our our background
and communion is so different
to that within protestant protestantism
and then i remember walking into this
chapel and despite my mind the potent
presence of jesus in that in that room
literally in that space where the
exposed eucharist was was like
i didn't know what to do with it and
then i brought a friend in one day
who's actually more prone to like
doctrinal stuff and he's a little bit
less like
um
naturally open in in terms of mysticism
and things like that and he goes man
what the heck is going on in this room
because you could feel it it was like
potent and i didn't know what to do with
that so um anyway that's a bit of a
tangent but
it's true there is um
yeah there is there is a unit there is a
unity that is underlying i think across
traditions and i think you're right yeah
we need
you were talking about the balance of
some of these more rigid traditions um
and i agree i think there's something of
even honor like
i've noticed um and maybe you could
speak into this like even in the
charismatic
um in the charismatic church like the
last or even take um
pentecostalism and things like that
um there there have been things that
have happened within the prophetic
movement like the last 20 years
manifestations that have happened and
stuff and i i remember reading
these books on the lives of the saints
and i was like wait a second
this is like the same stuff that was
happening
centuries and centuries and centuries
ago but it's almost like when you talk
to a charismatic person they're having
arguments still sometimes around some of
the things that are happening whether
it's gold dust or it's different things
like that but you read some of the lives
of the saints you're like this was
happening this was happening oil
manifestations of manner manifestations
of gold it was all happening for
centuries before and so there's this
thing that we we can cut off our
tradition in an unhealthy way as well in
the name of
our freedom and
not being rigid and things like that but
there is a balance
it's like um it's a thing of honor and
recognizing the storehouse of wisdom
that's being stewarded
um but we but then we also just need to
innovate we need to like move forward in
freedom as well so
um
yeah i don't know if you have any
comments on that yeah i mean
i just you know what i've done with my
podcast and just
people in general like i just try to
double down on the parts that i uh
can agree with or
find find common ground on you know
versus like yeah on the other end other
spectrum looking for what we disagree
with which is where most of
said people would the first thing they
see is the thing that makes them
different you know what do you believe
about this and i remember meeting
christians back in the day
just when i was just strictly church
stuff like um they would like
almost interrogate me of my beliefs and
like okay was jesus god or was he the
son of god and they keep like going
through all of these things until until
you
you disagree with them on something
and then once you disagree with them
like okay yeah that's that's what was
awful about you or that's why
you know that's why we can't walk
together we can't do ministry and they
won't be your friend because you're uh
you don't agree with them on this one
thing and it's like wow so like i caught
the i caught a lot of that stuff when i
was in it i call it doctrine banging
just like gang banging coming from the
streets and like hey man what's that you
with man with you who you with you know
and
you got that going on with with the
church you know folks too and
but yeah i try to just find common
ground with people and
and build there and i don't have an like
um i guess an agenda for for the most
part to like try to convert somebody or
change them the agenda is just you know
whatever it takes for them to
you know draw closer to god
depending on where they are you know
what i'm saying yeah for them and just
respecting their journey
i don't care if you're like
you know hellfire preacher brimstone but
listen it's your journey i i appreciate
what you're doing and uh because you
think i'm going to hell
and i honestly don't respect you if you
don't proselytize right if you don't
tell me i'm going if you think i'm going
to hell but you just kind of turn your
head the other way and not tell me
you know um that's you know how how um
how shallow of a human being are you not
to care about my eternal soul so people
believe these things for a reason you
know and they have they preach them with
such conviction and it's truth to them
and you really can't tell them otherwise
unless they go deeper into it or having
an awakening and i've done all of it man
like i've been at every you know part of
that and
um
kind of come full circle
but i do think it's strange how like you
know we want everybody to be like us
like why can't you just be a mystic why
can't you just do this and contemplate
the love of god all day or
then on the other hand because i know
christians who are like they're into
like the um
in the mystic movement where they're
like caught up in the heavens all day
and they're just in the heaven or
they're talking the ghost and laughing
and like they're drunk in the spirit all
day so much so where they look into the
camera and you know all the and it's
just like this weird thing and hey it
works for them god bless you and your
community um but it'd be weird if every
christian like the entirety of the body
of christ was doing that i think it'd be
strange you're caught up in heaven
taking trips to heaven all day every day
i think that'd be weird just like it
would be weird if
all all of christendom and all of the
mystics and everybody were on the street
corners holding up signs preaching
repentance to the end repent the kingdom
of heaven is near like they think that
that's the right way and how everybody's
supposed to do it
imagine if all of christendom
did it we're on every corner in the
entire that would be very strange if
that was like our
you know our modalities like everybody
john the baptist
you know god you know hates sinners you
know stuff so
i love the diversity and the
individuality that that god has in the
body and we mentioned it you see how you
know catholics are kind of coming around
and saying yeah i recognize those people
as being
you know they're on our team i'll say
that um
a big part of my awakening was was
hearing um billy graham
and robert schuler
and billy graham said that
these jokers had muslims
hindus people who have never even heard
the name of jesus were part of the body
of christ
and he said they may have not even heard
that name
and that that blew me man and that was
so deep and it still is for me to this
day it part of my awakening and i put it
in my music and it was just so so big
for me to to see how expansive robert
schuller said the body of christ is and
kind of going back to uh you know romans
one and two that if a gentile you know
by nature do the things that are written
of in the law and nobody told him to you
know that they become a law to himself
you know and
um
i just i find how god
deals righteously with all men
um
the one thing that i do the caveat i do
have is that they would repent you know
the book of acts said as long as you
turn away from your sins like god will
deal righteously with you and and
there's levels to that what that is turn
from that which is killing you whether
it's the mosaic law like you got a lot
of different
realms of what that means but um
just to know that god
loves everybody
and
everybody is a child of god you know it
changes things for me the gospel changed
for me it wasn't something that if you
ask him to forgive you
then he will
but if you don't ask him he won't and
you had to ask him you had to do
something and so
it moved from
more of a universal standpoint of like
you're already forgiven you just don't
know it
like before while we were yet sinners
christ died for the ungodly and so it's
just a good work that we get to declare
i don't care if you believe it or not
now you believing it and you applying
that grace to your life transforms you
you know that it gives you the ability
to turn from your sin once you know how
how loved you are and you can't undo
what christ did for everybody but but
you can you can uh have that ministry of
reconciliation letting them know
declaring that good news that hey
god loves you he's not mad at you he's
madly in love with you and that that
transforms
bible says that it's the goodness of god
that leads men to repentance and so we
just gotta let him know
how good he is you know
yeah it's true man i uh
um
you just said so much in that um
i
i first i feel like um what you were
saying about
oh yeah if people were
standing on the street and saying repent
and and that whole
thought is um
i feel like there's often
there's an evolution that happens um in
terms of revelation
and so
like you see the last 20 years i
mentioned before like the prophetic
movement prophecy comes and then
we we love to find our sense of
belonging within the movement rather
than let the movement move us somewhere
and then it can settle down and find its
place you know you talk about the people
who are just like drunk in the spirit in
the heavens and whatever and um i'm all
for that as well man like i john crowder
was so um
influential
to me in in some of my earlier journey
when i was spending eight hours a day
just seeking the lord you know and
um and i remember at that time you know
you couldn't say john crowder because it
was like oh he's into
universalism and he's he's he's gone off
the path and people people would say the
most
disturbing things about him without
actually even understanding where he was
coming from
um for example
and
yeah there's something about i see this
even with the mystical movement it's
like we don't want to be a mystical
movement
because it can just be another
um
thing that we are then defined by
the same time like we're talking about
labeling it giving it a label okay
that's the mystical movement that's
something that you're in and that's
something you can walk away from
right yeah i'm not a mystic anymore man
i'm more mainly like what you know yeah
once you give it that name then
you create a box yeah
a hundred percent and people they're
tossed to and fro by winds of doctrine
they're going in and out of these
different movements and they're looking
there's a deeper thing in them
that i think is looking to be satisfied
they're looking for
you know my wife said this recently it's
like people want accountability of some
kind they want to it's almost like they
just want to go like man you're doing
okay you're doing good you're fine
you're all right you're okay like and
what you were saying about that
perspective of the gospel that like you
didn't ask for forgiveness god forgive
you now he's all right because then
you're only okay until you do the next
wrong thing
and then he turns his face away
he's not in his favor anymore yeah and
it's like a recipe for your own effort
and actually
man that's that's that's the most
lethal thing
to i think the body of christ the most
poisonous thing is us reaching
beyond what's already there to find
something but it's already inside of us
and that's where the path of the mystic
is powerful because it's a recognition
that
it's done i've been joined together with
christ in the likeness of his death and
therefore in the likeness of his
resurrection i now share in his life
and it's the discovery of what's already
inside of you um i think that's that's
powerful and i think like if we could if
we could reference paul you know who
he was willing to suffer the loss of all
things his reputation he was a spiritual
man he's a pharisee of pharisees you
know in terms of tradition
and practice yeah he was like intense
but he was like that's that's not what
i'm clothing myself in
like i've been clothed in christ that's
that's where i find my sense of self um
and again this is where i think yeah
mysticism is really powerful if you can
walk that fine line
of
um benefiting and acknowledging these
different streams and what they offer
what they bring to the table
but
um also be willing to suffer the loss of
all those things for the sake of this
intimate knowledge that's actually a
gift it's been given to us by him apart
from our own involvement and like you
said we just get to respond to goodness
yeah and we get to um receive it that's
and um
receptivity being able to receive i feel
like is one of the hardest things
to cultivate and
and to learn how to do
um and that's why we can be so prone to
our own effort it's because like it's
actually just very hard to receive
because we learn or we're conditioned
with like this idea that there's always
a hook you know there's always
some kind of a gender involved when
something is given for free so to just
receive the simplicity of that like
christ did it it's yours we're all
included in his death and it's it's now
it's done grace was given to us before
time began um
you know because i've heard people say
like
i've heard people's argument you know
with
some of what you said about this more
universal perspective
i've heard people say that's just
heretical
they would say um well then what do we
do what about evangelism yeah what about
like and it's like we have to have
something to do to define ourselves by
rather than just being um you know if
you think about sexual intimacy it's
like why do you do that because it's fun
and then
in the fun and in the pleasure you
reproduce like stuff happens so you can
actually
reproduce just simply by enjoying and
being a receiver of something good but
that's i think that's a mentality that
it can be hard for people
to accept yeah yeah and i think that
takes a little while too of like you
know because it's like
how do you you know where do we go from
here you know do we just tell people
yeah and uh i've heard critics of it you
know um well don't tell anybody because
then you give people the ability to
reject christ once you tell them or
share the gospel you know and that kind
of thing and you're setting people up
for failure if everybody's already saved
or whatever the case is but
um yeah i think we're
you know we're we're still
you know diving into what it what it
looks like too you know because this is
something yeah
it's not new but it's new to us you know
now
um i do feel like it was a a doctrine
that was believed by by the early church
and
um
but
for us it's very new for christianity of
you know for sure
21st century so
and i think i think again the same sort
of theme we've been on is like
i because you know i've gone back and
forth in terms of
the clear doctrine of it and looking in
scripture but
the more that i
i mature the more i'm also just happy to
sit in the mystery a little bit and
acknowledge like
there's even though i can't fully
piece everything perfectly together like
it's clear
that god's love extends universally but
in terms of you know the nuts and bolts
of it it's like
we'll figure it out like it'll yeah the
lord will give us more and more
understanding as we need it and it's
gonna be okay
um but i would like to i'd love to ask
you a bit more about um
we were talking about um just just the
nature of god
in
in other people even people who are
of different faiths like this has been a
journey for me that
i
recently has become a whole lot more
deep um and it was something that i
could communicate and i agreed with
but um
kind of going through a recent
detox which we were talking about before
we started recording
um
of
of christian culture and just i realized
how much of myself i had suppressed in
the name of accommodating where people
were at because and that's no one else's
fault that ultimately comes down to my
own fault but
it was the fear of like recognizing what
the general consensus was within a group
and then
you know sometimes there's a fear of
like if i just be myself and i don't
agree
um
we have these experiences but it doesn't
turn out very well and that was kind of
what it was like for me and so
um i ended up having the lord took me on
a beautiful journey of just rediscovery
and reinvention and finding myself again
and going like right to the edge
out into the wilderness
but then
something of the person
of christ and the nature of god in
christ just held me intact
somehow through all of it all the mess
and
um
what i came out with or one of the
things that i came out with is you know
getting around people of different
um spiritual traditions and people on
different pursuits
realizing how much of their journey
is not that different to what's
happening in
the christian world and and then also
realizing that sometimes the modalities
and the practices
the way things are that things are
constructed can be almost um on a when
we're talking about pragmatism like just
a whole lot better even
um
in terms of effectiveness and um it's
because they explain it more you know we
just get an overview with the bible we
don't the bible doesn't specialize in
any of those modalities you know they
give you we're reading a story about
people who were
operating in it and and maybe even
studied their whole life on how to use
these tools
how to use crystals how to use you know
how to uh
you know
hear god in in in the dream state or how
to communicate with angels you know and
so there's no tutorial that we read
about and so
these other
you know
traditions they've been doing it for
thousands of years and it's passed down
you know for uh for tradition and even
books in some cases and but the bible's
full of that we just don't have any any
tutorials and we're trying to create
some and you know we there are people
bethel is doing a really good job
morningstar did a really good job um and
a lot more people who are continuing to
kind of carry that that torch and that
flame and and flesh stuff out
a little bit just so it's less taboo
um
and it's but that's part of the journey
now you know there is this weird thing
maybe it's supposed to be like that you
know or
because it is now like 100 percent
whether it's what's supposed to be or
not but there's this thing where you
kind of have to step out into the deep
in a band almost abandon your face
you're not abandoning it but you have to
step away from the religion of your
fathers and say okay i'm gonna go take
that journey i'm gonna go learn i'm
gonna go study it's in you
outside you know you
tell anybody you're done
you know so it's stuff you're looking at
in private and even that
i can't let them know that i'm watching
these videos i can't let them know i
bought this book maybe i need to burn
the book
let's throw the book away let's get rid
of these necklaces and pendulums and no
it's not of god you know and so that
whole
process
for the believer is crazy this we call
it the pendulum process about went mad
going through
through that part of the journey and
that's why i i speak about it so openly
to help people
like get through that just not to lose
their mind and then
your whole
you know
church family and people who love you
with all their heart
they they think you're an enemy or
you're deceived or you got demons in you
now you know and all of this stuff just
because
you try to pray against it and you
rebuke it and you fast it away god i
don't want to touch not if it's not of
you i don't want it and it just never
leaves it gets stronger
you know man god is calling me to look
into reiki what the heck you know or i'm
just throwing him out there or or to go
hang out with hindus why is this this
overwhelming zeal within me to to do
yoga it makes me feel so alive it makes
my body feel cleansed and and i feel
healthy and i i'm clear-headed
but every
all the christians are saying it's
demons that i'm opening up myself to
demons when i do these positions and
trying to rationalize that as a believer
you know i could drive you mad and it
about drove me yeah you know
do you have um like
because i i
it's even you talking man it's like
um it's really it's even impacting me
for some reason because
i
yoga is a good example i i remember
actually i'll start with breath work
like maybe six years ago yeah
i think it was just wim hof like i i was
always looking i was spending eight
hours
in meditation and and seeking the lord
the in the best way i knew how it was a
lot of it was just praying in the spirit
because i didn't know what else to do
and
and i remember my mind and my body
always felt like it was resisting
what was opening up in the spirit
and and i know especially for
christianity i don't think there has
been a lot of emphasis on the body
and there hasn't been a lot of a
holistic approach around the body
and um
and i started doing breath work because
i discovered it and i was like oh my
gosh i feel so different i feel like the
the phonetic energy in my body is which
i wouldn't have had that language but
like is being is discharging
and it's helping me to kind of integrate
as i'm
engaging in these like mind-expanding
experiences that are triggering and
contradicting how my body's been
programmed um
and i remember even bringing it up with
like close friends and saying man i did
like this breath work thing like i
didn't even use that language just like
these breathing things
and the response was so like
dismissive that i was like i'm never
talking about that again and i just like
kept it to myself but every morning i
get up at three and the first thing i do
is this deep breath work practice and it
would just awaken my spiritual senses my
body would rest and it would calibrate
into the spirit and um
and yeah like what and
you know more recently it's been yoga
like i started going to a yoga school
and i walk in and this is like part of
my journey and i'd love to hear just to
try and draw out of you some of what's
been helpful for you
i went into this yoga studio and it's
like a yoga school so not like the west
end like
we're gonna do a 30 minute flow yoga
it's not like that it's like this is the
dude who runs this is a yogi like that's
what he does
and i felt drawn to it through a series
of events
and the lord had kind of begun to deal
with the fear of just like going into
these kinds of places
because
we walked by conscience we followed the
leading of the lord speaking to us in
our conscience and i go in there there's
a massive like vishnu on the wall or
like shiva one of these gods and it's
like i'm like wow i'm in deep right now
um but so much peace in my heart and
then doing this practice it includes
breath work meditation everything it's
not just the physical asana
and then it gets to a point and i
remember one time the lord they're doing
this chanting
and i don't know what the chanting is
because it's not in english and it's
just like repeat after me and people are
just like chanting
and
there was one point where i felt the
holy spirit inside of me go i do not
want you to chant that and i just like
that was it that was my moment and i
just kept my mouth shut
and then afterward he
he explained what that meant and he goes
um
that one was honoring this deity or
whatever it was like a direct like
worshipping of of some idol or whatever
um but yeah i would love to hear like
some of your journey like that part of
your journey
right you feel pulled and trying to
integrate some of that into being a
christian
yeah yeah
well some of those obviously i mean i'm
with you on the channing i want to know
what it means you know i want to know
hold on what are you what am i uh you
know saying invoking whose praises am i
singing yeah um so there's some
beautiful ones out there that
that um
that that are awesome you know and so
for me i think learning vibration was a
big one you know learning and under
that's kind of with the awakening to and
sound and
um
uh cymatics and stuff like that
everything is moving and vibrate
everything has a song and so the om um
is one of the first chants you do right
if you're trying to meditate right uh
what is that what do we don't um you're
invoking a deity and so um
just
researching it i i come to understand
that it's the song of the sun
that we're joining because that's the
the like the tone that the the sun is
supposedly um resonating at and making
that sound and so
in my mind
just like the scripture says that if we
cease to praise
that the rocks will cr begin to cry out
you know i used to think the rocks would
start singing worship songs that open up
but it's like no the rocks are already
already like worshiping and they have a
resonance as well that they're singing
back to their creator so
for the om i would be like okay well
we're i'm joining with the sun
honoring the creator everything is
honoring the creator in residence and so
when we do home i'm in my mind i'm
joining with the sun to honor the
creator so i'm singing the song of the
sun back to the creator so i would
rationalize that in my mind i have
beautiful encounters and then there was
another a chant one of the first chants
i learned was ramadasa
i don't know if you're familiar with
that but it's rama dasa
say sohang and so he like ra we're
calling on ra the song you know these
weird christian things you know but you
know but when you break it down it it
literally means what i just explained
with the sun it's like i'm joining with
the earth joining with the sun joining
with the moon and all of creation to
honor the creator
it's like rob
no that's i can get down with that
listen i'm going to join with all
creation and offer praises with my
brothers and sisters you know so
that was the easy way for me to
rationalize those kind of things that's
good um
but then let's get into so i don't
honestly
i don't use the the gods and stuff um
or or really uh you know iconography
even but i understand them and
i would even be okay if i'd if i needed
to though
so if if i was in a place
that is a symbol
of the one all of those
you know christians make fun of hindus
got 17 000 gods you don't even know all
the gods you serve you know
whatever all of that
uh goes
back to elimination
and if you want all you got to do is
look at catholicism
it's the same thing that these people
these saints
are closer to an aspect of god
they literally represent an aspect of
god that you pray to
uh and you ask for assistance
you're not you know
so there's certain there's certain
saints that that you would pray to
and ask to to intercede for you because
they're closer to god when it comes to
um having a child a woman who is having
birth problems well there's a there's a
saint that you pray to for birth
problems or whatever so that's the image
you you may get a card or the statue or
or read something about it i don't know
in all of these the way that we're wired
it's just oneness of of
the creator but we need
a lot of times we need symbols and signs
and things like that to be able to
explain them i mean allegory
even so
um learning that with with hinduism also
helped me with catholicism with the
saints and the angels and invoking
different things and then we got to go
back to the bible it's almost like the
different names of god
when we like we have all of these
jehovah rapha you know i'm saying
uh jehovah shalom he's my peace well i'm
calling upon this aspect of god god i
need your shalom in my life jehovah
shalom come in
and save
uh
jehovah jireh he's my provider like god
become he is i am that i am i will be
whatsoever i will be whatever you need
me to be i'm going to be it you will
need me to be your provider i'm that you
need me to fight for you you need me to
take up for you you need a place to live
you need a shelter you need food i got
you and so
i see that a lot of the the hindu and
indian stuff the same way is that in in
and those who know their stuff will tell
you yeah they're they're emanations they
just they are a personification of
this side of god the warrior aspect the
animal kingdom or whatever and i don't
you know claim to understand it all but
i did have a beautiful conversation one
of my most popular ones was with with a
girl named dania
um
about bhakti yoga and i asked her and
she
you know asked hey like
you know the allegory is this i'm
because i'm feeling it in my spirit that
it's the same thing it's
just obviously the iconography is there
everything is the same right um but the
the the words are different the the
pictures are different and it's the same
thing so
like i don't do that just because it's
not a part of my practice but
i could i could look at that and see god
like if i needed to
i can i look at everything and see god i
look at the sunset i see god i look into
the waters and i see him i look into my
daughter's eyes i look at my dog smiling
back at me like i see i see god and
everything so if i needed to look at
shiva and it was the only thing i had or
i was with those people i could look at
that and see how it fits my tradition
and not blaspheme or or be serving the
god i think the serving the god is where
you would look at that as again its own
entity as being separate and this is the
the thing much like may you know we
people would say the catholics are doing
with with the images or pictures of
jesus and and even symbols to begin with
so
i look at everything
as an emanation of the creator and i
love that the allegory uh that's within
the bible as as um with the with the
characters in the bible about you know
our our walk and and what we go through
and what we face so everything's telling
a deeper story if we can you know sit
with it long enough or look at it long
enough we can be able to trace it back
um i'm not saying you should you should
do that but if needed
if needed i would say
that's good
it's good it's a way to navigate your
conscience and it's a way also
um i think you you're talking about like
vibration and um
is that what you is that the word used i
can't remember but um
i feel like understanding energetics to
just like in a small way helps
us to understand like when we
when we direct our attention or our
affections it's actually our own energy
that we are directing and aligning with
some aspect of god so it's like it isn't
because we so like
i feel like sometimes it's such a worry
of like if i
just get it wrong somehow like i
practice the wrong thing yeah i'm gonna
be outside of god's favor or something
and and then it's like
i'm gonna get a demon or whatever so
it's like if i do a yoga practice like i
do this asana i'm now because of the
physical thing i'm doing i'm opening up
my body to demons
but if but it's about energetics it's
like
you're connecting
with the nature of god you can just do
it in everything
and and that's having the ability to see
that christ is in all things
and then nothing's gonna happen you're
not gonna you're not gonna get a demon
it's not like
it's not like oh no like they got in
through a back door and i didn't know i
didn't understand and so now i'm i'm
stuck you know
or whatever um
so yeah uh and
you know because i another thing i
wanted to ask you was about um
breath work specifically around like
kundalini breath work
and um
and yeah like i
said the kundalini breath work or
kundalini spirit
has been a topic of controversy
um in especially in charismatic in the
charismatic world because
of some of the manifestations that
happened in certain renewals and things
like that um and then the association
with like these kundalini um
yoga retreats and things like that and
the similar sort of manifestations or
the same manifestations happening
and
um
i'm hesitant because i've never really
talked about this before but um
my own journey with that was like
you know and and in line with what
you're saying like you can kind of you
can put aside the philosophy or you can
rationalize it so that your heart stays
in the place where it's directed toward
the lord
but in terms of practice often these
practices are really practical um it's
like it's like people this is something
i've been thinking about a lot recently
it's like you think of some of the
patriarchs like abraham for example like
he comes from a
like a pagan
or idol worshiping polytheistic culture
um and i remember once finding this
scripture in um it's in genesis and it
says and it's actually isaac and it says
and isaac went out to the field to
meditate it's just this one liner and it
stuck with me yeah and i was like wait a
second
was he did he have a bethel worship
track on did he you know like he went
out into the field to meditate
that means he had a practice
where did his practice originate from
because it didn't originate from modern
christianity didn't originate from the
early church didn't originate from the
desert fathers
it was originated from the tradition
that he was part of
it had to it had to have and
he just that's what he had that's the
tools that he had to connect to
spiritual things
and he was just following the tradition
that he had but he was following yahweh
um
and so
it's just like it's interesting how like
your philosophy can be
um can stay intact and it's cris christo
centric or even christological
but you can have all sorts of practices
so i'd love to hear your perspective on
that on especially kundalini
and i just want to say something for
listeners as well um because this can be
really triggering
is just to have an open mind with this
and do your own research and go digging
because you you just you may not know
everything and and consider what you
just heard
from some heresy hunter or whatever or
some even pastor that's respectable and
go and do some of your own research into
these things but yeah i would love man
if you could
share some of your opinion on that
yeah this is it's become really um
popular um scary
um
lately and so it's one of my biggest
things where i've done a couple videos
on it early on even
and um
a lot of people find it and it scares it
scares the hell out of them you know um
that that you're literally like opening
yourself up to another spirit of foreign
spirit kind of thing and maybe it should
be you know what i'm saying it should be
scary like because it's new right yeah
it's
it's you never heard it before so
um
for me yeah
with my awakening
a huge shift happened for me and i quit
judging people
off of what they said and more often
what they did
and i feel like that's what jesus told
us to do he says
judge
everything according to its fruit
wait in due season that tree is going to
give you some fruit
be not deceived and apple's not going to
give you an orange
orange apple tree's not going to give
you an orange orange tree's not going to
give you an apple
fig tree's gonna produce figs and so if
it doesn't then it'd be
thrown into the fire
um
so i started looking at the fruit in
people's lives and so that's what opened
me up to be able to talk to mystics or i
say mystics uh hindus or new agers or
whatever the case is um because i seen
fruit in their life
and uh and it was contradictory because
like in my mind hold on like it's
essentially fruit to the holy spirit
and what i mean by that love joy peace
patience gentleness
virtue like self-control
why you guys if somebody disagrees with
you you lash out and yell
that's not self-control
like those fruits let you know when
people have been hanging out with the
holy spirit because there's certain
fruits that you're naturally going to
produce so i started judging people that
way
um not be like hey brother i i read the
bible and i'm a pastor at so-and-so
church but the guy got you know
all kinds of stuff going on in his
closet and cheating on his wife and you
know whatever but you don't get to see
that um but so i judge the fruit in the
heart and i'm it goes deeper just like
of of like us walking like christ to be
able to do that and it gets really deep
into like the prophetic even i don't
want to deviate too far into that but
the prophetic of being able to see a
person how god sees them
um in the potential versus seeing their
ailment or seeing hello i'm a hindu you
know and it was a
bad uh
impersonation but
they that's all you see okay he's a
hindu because there's my box
hindu box i put that in my hindu box
you're the christian box and so
i feel like jesus was able to see past
that and see the heart of an individual
and be able to see their soul and speak
to that and so um
i don't want to deviate too much on that
but but judging the fruit the fruit of
an individual because that's what they
produce
so when we're looking at fruit we got to
look at the kundalini right and
kundalini yoga right we're talking about
breath work we're talking about yoga
these are things that are going to be
brought up because there's kundalini
yoga right it's a form of yoga that's
that gets the body involved in the
breath and and people have a kundalini
awakening a spontaneous kundalini
awakening many times during kundalini
yoga
sometimes random just in their life this
this encounter happens and
i remember after doing yoga for the
first couple times and just feeling
amazing i think my first yoga may have
been kundalini yoga and it was just i
felt so good like i felt so good i felt
like an old dirty wash rag that just got
wrang out and filled with fresh water
like everything looked different it
smelled different i was awake got
vibrant alive i never felt my muscles
were sore that i didn't like normally
use and it just felt so good so that was
my introduction to it there was no
goddess worship or any of that kind of
stuff going on or and it wasn't even
very spiritual like you had to make it
spiritual like with your intention
your intention what you brought to it
and i'm i'm not connecting with shiva
i'm not i'm connecting with the holy
spirit doing kundalini yoga and had a
beautiful encounter and so
um
going back to the fruit what was the
fruit of my experience with that
a beautiful experience more in tune more
loving more centered more grounded
uh vibrant and then we look at the fruit
of an individual who has it
um
the symptoms right then so you'll see a
lot of videos of people shaking and
rolling on the floor laughter joyous
laughter crying screaming a lot of
different manifestations we'll say and
so that happens with a lot of people who
receive the baptism of the holy spirit
this fire enters them like i said and
cleans
cleanses them and all this kind of stuff
and they feel born again you know they
feel like a brand new person and so i
remember just reading on on a website
like they were kind of like going giving
an overview of like some things that may
happen if you have a kundalini awakening
or during kundalini yoga and it was all
of those things that like happened to me
when i received jesus into my life and
got the baptism in the holy spirit
crying laughter
healing
joy like all of these things and so
that's the fruit of it the fruit of this
this um
kundalini yoga so
when you look at the similarities
objectively like there's a lot of them
there there's there's many that are
there and so um
that that was um early on that i that i
had done that and there wasn't much in
christendom about kundalini at the time
um a little bit later there came out a
teacher by andrew strom
man probably 2008 2006 something some
2009 just in that time frame that he put
out a kundalini warning kundalini has
invaded the churches and he was the
first one that made that connection
and uh and many people have seen that
documentary and go back to it and i
ended up having a guy on on the podcast
like
until about 2010 like early on and just
picking his brain about kundalini yoga
and in the holy spirit and and even the
words that that that what it is and and
breaking it down of me trying to get an
understanding and how does this fit in
the bible you know jesus felt the virtue
virtue leave him whenever the woman with
the issue of blood touched him and he
felt he felt it and um it goes back to
the word that was used in kundalini is
uh uh the uh
viria energy which is
virtue this virtuous energy that you
work up and it can heal people it's
transferable you see people in those
circles laying hands on individuals and
they receive it they get healed they
fall out they cry they go into
spontaneous so when you they start
playing those videos next to
bethel church it you know it looks very
similar so i'm
two things here is the the fact that
you have um
um it looks similar
i'm looking at the similarities i
say these could be the same thing like
this could be
them
working with the holy spirit what do you
mean
joel the prophecy of joel said i will
pour out my spirit upon all flesh
it wasn't just christians that wasn't
just israelites that wasn't just people
in the upper room like all flesh means
all flesh and so you know did they it is
this them working with the holy spirit
working with that universal life force
energy
that is in every religion
and it's very similar you know of them
obviously
you work with it differently
you receive it differently um
there's that you build doctrines around
how to keep moving forward with it heck
we do that in christianity you know of
what it's capable of and what it's not
what it is and what it isn't um so my
studies is to go in and say okay maybe
it's the same thing maybe these people
are encountering the holy spirit in this
way through god's grace you know
so i've kind of brought that to the
table and that's what scares a lot of
people blasphemy you just said that the
kundalini serpent was the holy spirit
that's me uh some people get into that
most don't it's a scary thing um i i
tied into pouring out spirit on all
flesh but let's go to
let's just look at bethel okay and to
say what it is and what it isn't for
them
now i can i would almost 100 say that
they're not
you know invoking a kundalini spirit
um
in their church
it's silly and i just got talking to
somebody about this today because you
know people hear me talking about it and
they ask questions and um a pastor
friend of mine just hit me up say hey
man some of my people are coming to me
but
these people are asking they're giving
their life to christ
and they're asking for an outpouring of
the holy spirit and
jesus asked you to come into my life
forget just like my experience in 1998 i
asked you to come to my life forgive me
of my sins cleanse me from all
unrighteousness
and i'll receive you i receive the
baptism and and they're having those
manifestations
in in the purity of that
and and some of these heresy hunters
have the audacity to say that
that that god sent the kundalini serpent
to them
like a
in the fact of an and
they use it as a derogatory term as a
foreign outside demonic
entity called the kundalini that's
entity that is masquerading as the holy
spirit it's acting like it it's
mimicking
get out of here the devil ain't gonna uh
heal nobody you know what i'm saying
like yeah all every good and perfect
gift comes from above
every single one of them the
devil is not out here healing people and
changing their lives and
helping people living devotion and honor
to god in bethel church thomas the devil
that's the silliest thing
the scripture says that
if concerning the holy spirit that if
you ask your father
for a fish
he's not going to give you a serpent
it's not going to throw you a snake god
will you give me a fish and throw a
snake at you if you ask your father
kundalini's that's what these people are
are like insinuating that that folks are
doing they're asking their father for
the precious promise of the holy spirit
i read it in the word i believe it god
with all my heart can i receive it and
he sends a demon called the kundalini
you got that's the worst theology i've
ever heard in my life
to to look at that
demonic you know um yeah
versus any kind of difference there so
that's the two standpoints my look is
that maybe this could be the same thing
because these people in all sincerity
are asking
for an encounter with god and they're
asking for you know for jesus and the
baptism of the holy they're asking for
the things they're reading of in the
bible
with a pure and honest heart but god is
sending a demon if you don't get out of
here that's ridiculous man
yeah yeah yeah it's good man i um
i remember
and this was part of the this journey
for me is um i was on holiday and i
found a book in a book shop you know you
just feel weird like uh synchronicities
like he's like how am i
how is this happening right now in
this book by dr joe dispenza who i'm
sure you're aware of um a book called
becoming supernatural
and i was like i need to buy this book i
don't even know what it's about and i
just bought the book on holiday and just
started reading it and i was like
you know when you're like you're just
getting worked
by the holy spirit something's happening
and
and challenged as well because of my my
frameworks and things like that and um
he's
the book is so rich with testimony so
like every chapter has got like
just like accounts of
um
people being healed like you know
accounts of like a lady who she's in a
meditation an angel appears to her
shakes her leg she's an issue with her
leg and her leg gets healed
and i'm going
this is not demonic like this can't be
demonic like brother
the bible says that satan comes as an
angel of life
yeah yeah all that yeah yeah yeah
exactly
and um and everything you're saying like
all
the even the underlying philosophy that
he is communicating is ultimately about
unconditional love and about
surrendering to unconditional love and
you know he calls it divine intelligence
or whatever
and um
one of the things one of the practices
that he does because he's a very
pragmatic person he's a he's a doctor
is a kundalini breath practice
and the way that he breaks it down
really
really helped me because he
he just talks about the science of it
and this is probably getting into you
know energy centers and chakras and some
of those things which can be very
triggering as well
but he breaks down the science of like
how
um we have these centers these energy
centers in our in our body and
he uses simple analogies of how we
direct energy
in through our system so like if you get
hungry
and you think about food
um
we have the endocrine system so we have
chemicals and hormones that are secreted
in our body when you um
think about sexual things you it's it
starts to stimulate or arouse parts of
your body because it's connected and and
release hormones and things like that
into your body that's aligned to that
energy center and so he breaks it down
in a pretty um
so like mechanical way almost
but he teaches people how to do this
it's actually a kundalini yoga breath
practice
um and i remember the lord taking me to
Colossians 3 because where it says um
put to death that which is earthly in
you and it like lists all of them
um all the things that you're kind of
like mortifying or whatever
um
and
and he showed me like through this
practice set your mind on things above
because a lot of um what some of these
kundalini breath practices are is it's
about pulling energy out of some of
these lower centers so that it can be
redirected
into these kind of higher centers into
the heart for example the heart center
which is where you
love and where you connect and where and
you know the scripture talks about
christ coming to dwell in the heart
um
and some of those like correlations are
so
i don't know really help demystify
some of it for me as well yeah but um
but yeah i i fully hear what you're
saying it was like quite a so i started
reading this book and then
that night i'm sitting with chloe my
wife and we're just waiting um on the
lord we're just meditating just sitting
there and this vision opens up like one
of the strongest
open-eyed visions
that i'd had and i know it was because
of what was unlocked being unlocked
reading this book
and i started to have all these mystical
experiences after reading that book
where the lord spoke to me where um you
know
one of the encounters was like a prophet
a prophet who's not with us in in the in
this world anymore came to me
as like
vividly as i'm talking to you and spoke
to me very clearly and it was all
through
taking some of these principles in this
book doing this breath practice and it
just unlocked
some of these things so um
yeah it's it's interesting uh and i feel
like kundalini's one um
obviously like a more triggering thing
because of that video i didn't even know
who released that video into you said
2008
but i think there is a relevance to
talking about these things um
because i know people are like
are searching and and and one thing i
was going to say is when i
was navigating this
um
i started to to
read a lot of joe dispenza's work and
stuff like that and i was just being so
encouraged by it
and one night i went to bed and i had
this voice that was so loud
you know when you hear
voices in your head sounds like
like a mental person but like um when
you can hear your thoughts so distinctly
that you know
this is like this is some kind of
demonic entity or whatever and and the
voice was saying to me
you're going to get deceived
you're going to
you know get lost in this
new age spirituality you're going to be
that person that you you are aware of
who like walks away from the faith
um and you're it's too late like you're
gone and i was like it was so you know
when there's like an unction behind it
because it's an entity you know trying
to
trying to um
interestingly trying to deceive you
in a backhanded way and the way that the
lord spoke to me is he was like
um
he was like why would it
why would a demon tell you
you're going to be deceived like why
wouldn't he just let you be deceived
like
why is he like saying if you go this way
you're gonna get deceived it's like
because
there's something that he's unlocking
the lord was unlocking and leading me in
um and i feel like that's
that's the truth for a lot of people but
it's this religious kind of mindset
that um
can actually do more damage
than
going into some of these arenas and
discovering and just asking questions
just being curious and just being
innocent and having a non-judgmental
approach so
um the thing about it is
if it's the lord that's calling you to
it it won't go away you know like i said
earlier like you can't pray it away i
rebuked that i rebuked that uh kundalini
book you know or whatever listen if the
lord's calling you to it and it's but
you're supposed to read it there's gonna
be a hunger but you know there's gonna
be a healthy fear that you're triggered
you know you got a sense of a little bit
of ptsd you're you're being protective
though you have you have a delicate
faith and you're fighting for it with
tooth and nail you know and so you're
supposed to so um but yeah those taboo
things are those things that are far out
the holy spirit will lead you and guide
you into all truth and it just
it's the holy spirit doing it you don't
you don't really feel like it is at
first because
like it's telling you to do something
that you shouldn't do you know that
you've been told that you shouldn't do i
shouldn't look into this i shouldn't i
shouldn't feel so good when i do this it
shouldn't be this good for me you know
and um
but it never goes away
you know it never goes away whatever
your calling is like and it's part of
your story if you're supposed to look
into these things or
or you know go deeper
or want to understand the mechanics of a
miracle you know these guys are teaching
you the mechanics of miracles man and
how to heal yourself there's many
different kinds and types of miracles
some of them that any any person can do
on on on the corner there's some that
come
by a life laid down to
to the anointing like you have to have
the anointing they're showing you just
the bible says that you're fearfully and
wonderfully made there's breathing
techniques that unlock things in you
that relax you and
you know science knows that these guys
are just doubling down it's encouraging
for us because it it's you know these
things that we pursue by faith
they're giving us some substance to it
that it's not we can actually use our
faith in other areas because we actually
learn how to do this stuff and now we
can believe for bigger greater things
not have to you know use our faith in
into these little things anymore that we
we kind of learn how to do them and they
become second nature they become we have
all of these tools that we can use and
uh
you know you can use them for god you
can use them for the devil if you will
you and that just means good or bad just
using these tools that's all they are
you know yoga meditation breath work
that those are scary terms
prayer is a tool
fasting is a tool
uh singing is a tool you can you can
sing
praises and worships and
hymns and heavenly songs to the father
or you can sing about how depressed you
are and how
you know whatever the songs you're
listening to on the radio so there's a
one that's a tool that's being used for
either good or bad you can pray to your
father
seek your father or you can
pray to an entity that
or pray to harm somebody you know so
everything are tools we got so many that
we've given to the new age or the
spiritual community or whatever that
that were
a part of early christendom
and then going back to abraham and and
the patriarchs and and like you said
they got them from egypt they got them
from india
um but they were righteous because they
used them the wrong way it was how they
used their intention
coupled with that practice that what
made it good or bad
i got teachings on divination man like
like divination was bragged like joseph
and daniel like bragged about using
divination because they can hear god so
precisely they gotten so good at hearing
from god by using divination by casting
lots we see it used in the new testament
but but when we
hear it they hear that term there's a
couple reasons why we get scared
obviously in the book of acts that term
is used in the king james which really
shouldn't have been used and um
and god rebuked you know the diviners at
some point um but he also rebuked the
worshippers
so you're gonna quit singing he said i'm
not gonna listen to your songs anymore
they're clanging symbols i will never
hear your praises again because your
heart's not in it you trusted in your
songs and you didn't trust in me you
trusted in your feast and you didn't
trust in me you trusted in your holy
days and it's outward appearance but
your heart was far from me and jesus
comes to set the record straight and so
those those tools in and of themselves
aren't aren't evil it's when your heart
isn't in it worship isn't isn't
evil singing worship songs are amazing
but if you're if you don't mean those
words you're saying why are you even
open in your mouth it's lip service and
it's not honoring god because you living
from the heart that that worship comes
from your heart and out of your mouth
or your body doing the kundalini yoga
and breath it's the position of your
heart
like you when when your your heart is
connected and he has given you a new
heart that cries out abba father like
i'm looking for him and everything and
if he's not there then then he's not
there we'll keep moving moving along but
if he's calling you to some beautiful
things that we have given up
um yeah mindfulness contemplation like
you know the
monks and and and saints were or
levitating and just all types of crazy
stuff you know communicating with angels
elemental spirits
like working obviously if you look at my
testimony talking about
that entity that will summon i think
there's a good way in a good and a bad
way of writing the wrong way if you will
to work with with angels or or entities
on the other side the bible is full of
of encounters with ghosts
angels
demons and they brought those messages
and and so much stuff that we've just
kind of given up but there's a right way
and a wrong way so when the church
refuses to talk about these
then you're going to have the people who
go and look into those things and maybe
that's right what you heard that that
that you thought you know thought it was
directed at you that's directed at a
generation man who are hungry and
they're seeking after the things of god
but the church don't have no answers for
them they just tell them to pray against
it
you can't pray words of knowledge away
you can't pray dreams and visions away
they're going to keep coming it's who
you are it's in your dna
you're called you're chosen for this so
the church has to
wake up and be able to address these
issues and not just
try to throw all the baby out with the
bathwater and they are
they are that's why i say again there's
many people mystical circles that are
into
so many cool things with this stuff i
challenge a lot of people but you know
they they still they're into so much
stuff that they've um
you know embraced and they felt called
to and they've
they've had that check you know but the
more that we do it the more that we're
open and the more that we have these
conversations
like you know the more
that that we're gonna progress and uh
and there's this understanding in the
mystical movement that we need the new
things that god is doing a new thing the
next the next age is coming and god has
given us new tools and new things like
hold on we had some cool things that we
forgot about
the scripture says to return to the
ancient way
ask for the ancient path and it says in
there you'll find rest for your soul
like i want that i want i want that
connection man i want what they had i
don't want anything more i don't want
new stuff i want what they had what were
they doing and then so the more that we
look into it
and i'm sure you know this but looking
into like what you were saying uh uh you
were visited
by um by by you know someone
from the other side
like
that's scriptural man you know like
jesus
on on on the mount of
transfiguration peter james and john
with them and as far as i'm concerned
we pretty much got to get a
first glimpse of come on i want you guys
to come with me i want to show you guys
something this is what i do when i pray
come on up now
this is going to be special it's going
to be good and he knew what was going on
so
as far as i'm concerned
that happens like every time jesus would
go to pray for hours
he was commuting he was being being
taught that's foreign to us in western
christianity
but every other eastern
thought
says that your teachers
continue to teach you when they pass on
from the other side of the grave that
they continue to teach you and um so
obviously it wasn't that foreign to
christianity either
um christianity is an eastern religion
and it really helped me when i began to
see that and because i look at 100 some
of the stuff from the buddhists and the
hare krishnas and and you know the
indian traditions and i'm seeing
christianity like even even islam and
the muslim faith and and and some of the
things that they're doing i'm like that
looks more biblical than
than what what i see down the street you
know
and um
so they they have a piece of the ancient
path that that they never let go of and
whether it's the ancestors communing
with you or leading you and guiding you
there's so much that again we gave we
just gave away you know now you know
there's always the warning never
you know don't forsake your first love
you know and as far as concern like we
got we have access to christ you know we
have access to the
you know the one who created this matrix
and holds everything together so
like we go directly to him and through
him i try not to really like try to
pursue anything outside of him but i'm
open
going through christ and through the
holy spirit lord whatever it is that you
have for me it has to come through your
neck first it has to come pass through
your veil and that veil is if it has my
greater good in mind
and i'll tell you like
demons can have your greater good in
mind as well
there's things that they they come to
you to buffet you
to get things out of you they got their
stuff in you
that you have to get rid of to go to the
next level
you can't bring jealousy with you to the
places god's trying to bring you to
you'll mess it up you can't bring hatred
gossip bitterness
backbiting insecurity financial problems
you can't bring that with you to the
place that that god has prepared for you
so you have to go through hardships and
god has to turn up the fire and he does
that by sending
what we are called demons
to buffet you and they're do their
messengers they're angels
and they come from god he allows them
to buffet you and and uh
everything works together all things
work together for the good of those who
love god and with the enemy meant for
harm god will in turn use for good
and so it's a once you understand that
you're not a victim anymore you look at
your circumstance and your situation and
say okay lord what are you trying to
teach me
what is it that i need to learn i need
to be better with my finances i need to
stop gossiping because every time i
gossip it's coming back people are
finding out stuff i said about them like
i gotta stop like you know you we learn
hands-on
and god is the author and finisher of
our faith i don't think there's anything
that happens that god is unaware of he
knows about it all and he scripted it
and his plan is is beautiful and it's
when we respond with love it's when we
respond how christ responded as we're
able to go up and down on the
sanctification process
it's good man it's really good um
yeah i think what you were saying as
well about
just going back to these different
practices and um
and
the intention that we engage in them
with and i love what you said about you
that um the net you know the filter that
you have and yeah um i think that's
super it's super safe
this man there's just so much that's in
here we don't know it
because our minds are programmed to read
past it because we don't have a grid
until yeah we see it
in a movie
or almost fictionalize it it's almost
like our mind registered as it registers
it from sunday school you know it's like
people you taught noah's ark you talk
these different things and so we we
fictionalize it
um instead of just going like they live
with a different world view like their
perception of things
is vastly different to this modern age
of enlightenment empirical thinking you
know
idolatry kind of
that's it exactly and um and i i feel
like you know what we're saying going
back to going back to the ancient path
um more than ever it's important that we
we're not just living in the conceptual
like a lot of i think what what
modern-day christianity is is it's
unpacking revelation and that's our
strength when it's especially when that
is um unveiling to us the person of
christ you know through the leading of
the spirit and a preacher articulates
that revelation well it's like that's
good that's we need that we need that
revelation to be alive all the time
but at the same time we need to embody
that revelation like it needs to be
present in our physical bodies and a lot
of these practices
they're helping us to direct
our body because intention is not just
about thought thought
thought is held in the body
that's like
something that i feel like has been such
a learning journey for me recently the
last years like
what you think will will literally
program the body down to the body
so we have to like come into this place
where we're embodying this revelation
and and we recognize these technologies
that literally they'll unlock the body
so that we can truly
be surrendered in spirit soul and body
um to the kindness and the leading of of
the spirit in in how we're moving
forward
and um a lot of ancient monasticism you
know dating back to early christianity
and and before that judaism and in every
other tradition that's
that was an emphasis because
they didn't see these things as separate
there was there wasn't dualisms the way
that that we
were really susceptible to in in modern
in the modern world that we live in so
it's good man it's really helpful um
and i i also just want to um
just re-emphasize as well what you were
saying about having these conversations
um
because it's like we're coming into a
time like if the lord is leading people
like i think that's what people have to
come to it's like if the lord is leading
you to to
research divination to research
kundalini yoga to research reiki to
research these different things because
of something of the benefit something of
an inheritance that's actually part of
christ part of his kingdom that's in
these things we can't be afraid to have
the conversations because if we don't
have the conversations
and we don't talk about what we've
learned and how it can be um
it can be governed by by the lord it can
be under his lordship
then
i don't i don't know man it's pretty
it's pretty treacherous terrain for
people to terrain for people to navigate
by themselves it's just sketchy
if you don't kind of have some of those
principles in place so
um
yeah that's what that's why i started
talking about this stuff early on
because
um i needed somebody to talk to and and
really
my audience is me
like
i'm talking to that younger version of
myself yeah like who who is having
dreams and visions in the church about
things that were coming in the future
and i didn't know what it was and i
would go to the pastor and they they
just say that they told me it was the
devil you know and um
these prophetic giftings and stuff and i
didn't know how to use them and or tap
into them and
like
you know i didn't have i try to be what
i needed so let me be now that what i
needed back then and it was
i called pod i called in the podcast
i god and they were talking about all
kind
not
christian ones yeah but other ones that
were like
you talking about the book of enoch or
like i
i would call into like
people on like egyptology and like talk
about how to turn your body into a
vehicle of light merkaba i'm like
you know getting the techniques and
asking like sharing my experiences and
just i needed someone to talk to and i
just you know they were there were there
were some people there they weren't in
the church though
i couldn't talk to the church about
astrology i couldn't ask them what was
the master ross you know what what is
the the zodiac in the bible well that's
demon's brother like you know the
astrology is a trick of the devil and
the stars are actually just balls of gas
it was like what you know no the stars
are alive they they could be angels like
recording you know they could have jobs
you know and there's texts that say this
and
didn't have anybody to talk to
so i tried to um i tried to be now what
i needed then and a lot of my peers who
were having these same encounters with
me
they wouldn't talk about it because they
were fear of losing their jobs or fear
of their in-laws finding out or their
their wife's uh boss finding out
and um
and so because they didn't i was like i
have to
because if not then it becomes like
obviously and there could be wisdom here
but like the mystery schools and you
know the schools or the prophets and
those kind of things like they they they
are protectors of spiritual ancient
knowledge they protect it because if it
fell into their hands it could be used
the wrong way so there's levels of
initiation and
yeah i i believe that god has those
levels of initiation in the spirit you
know and uh yeah and secrets that he'll
show you is if he can trust you let me
give you a little piece and see what you
do with it kind of thing and let me make
sure i can trust you with these secrets
and
um
but
you know so
the church has that you know the church
has they know so much that they don't
talk about i can
i can read it on people like i i watch
benny hen you know and i just remember
like man he knows so much that he's not
sharing on on like aliens and
maybe even plant medicine like i just
know because he would he would
he would feel his audience though he
would use wisdom
he got a paycheck those people pay him
you know so he would use wisdom not to
like
you know angels or
you can summon an angel and they'll
appear to you or or whatever like
those people use wisdom
and uh because they have to
you know
um
i mean man i feel like i've done that
like i
i did that to such a degree though yeah
you lost your identity that you lose
your identity and then you're like okay
where's the balance because sometimes
and this is what i
you know in meetings with leaders for
example talking about certain things and
it was always this thing of like safety
and like you use wisdom things like that
and it was like i realized safety was
code for fear yeah it was it was code
for like i'm afraid that if i let
someone
navigate something for themselves
without like the protection of like how
we do things yeah that they're to get
lost and i think it's like
there's there is a circle it probably
would have though because you've you
experienced it
now with the internet and you creating
the grid
my podcast hey
this is what you get you want to keep
listening it's up to you you can push
stop or whatever but you going into that
meeting and trying to win them
on end of the world eschatology and how
to summon angels and i had this
encounter like
like that's different so
in a sense there's like this this place
where
you kind of do need to play to the room
you need to sing to the choir in a sense
to like to uh like paul says i become
all things to all men so that i can win
win some and then he also we you know a
pastor friend of mine i was talking
about this today just
jesus held back
yeah jesus held back and he was taught
in egypt for sure like
biblical jesus was moses they all were
taught in the ways of the egyptian
egyptian magic if you will
um
jesus held back but he gave his
disciples a little bit more let me tell
you what i meant by this you know and
i'm gonna show you how to do these
things i'm gonna show you how to commune
um
and so even paul you know we read in
scripture where paul said listen i came
to you and
i had to hold i held back and i only
knew christ and him crucified with you
because you guys
lost it you guys forgot like easily
forgot so i didn't talk about angels i
didn't talk about healing i didn't talk
about miracles or fasting
we needed to reiterate christ crucified
with you guys it wasn't open you got to
feel the room that's even spiritual to
be able to feel the room and say
okay because one a lot of times you'll
find this like false sense of like
of uh camaraderie because they're like
yeah man book of enoch i read it yeah
man i meant to the angels for sure and
then you're like yeah man telekinesis in
the
what you know and then you just lose
everybody so being able to fill the room
and play it
is wisdom um
i i had i had to train myself that early
on because i was very combative
not in the spiritual stuff but in like
doctrine wise and
and confrontational and calling names
and finger-pointing and stuff so eve and
this is man this is
15 years ago or more but but now i even
i have this like it's almost a little
chip on my shoulder like
knowing that you know stuff like i can't
you have to go like a long fast you have
to go out and
and stargaze for like 40 hours like
i can't just explain to you i can give
you some biblical precepts but
and tell you why i believe it but until
you see it until it happens you're not
going to get it so there's
with that there's a reserve of like okay
i don't have to
i don't have to win you over um i can
meet you where you are and try to fill
you out and um so now the chip on my
shoulder as in
i don't have to debate you
i could just let you talk
because the old me
no no no no the bible says this that's
ungodly that's not scripture you guys
are into some things that you're about
you're gonna get possessed like i was
that
you know that guy so now when i'm in a
room i remember the first time it
happened you know 15 years ago with a
catholic
spending a day with a a catholic dude
that was hanging out with us and that i
would have ate a catholic alive
i loved it you guys pray to mary as i
die i give you the lord said don't call
nobody father but you got call the pope
you know i had all this i
researched it and so for the first time
i was able to hang out with a guy who
was with us and not
i'm holding back i'm holding back and i
got through the weekend and never spoke
anything about it i was like wow
there's some tolerance there there's
some there's some i don't have to win
every conversation i have to be right
you know and all of this so for me i
still carry that like in a room of
people like god sent i remember just a
couple weeks ago god sent trump here to
save america and those
you know and yeah brother we're in the
end times brother biden is probably the
antichrist i'm like
i can prove it to you that he's not like
in a in this in my eschatology and my
belief
you guys are probably not going to
believe me you know and and and i may
not be welcomed here again if i do
you know so let me just
pick my battle and say hey
maybe could be bro
he could be
we should pray for him you know he could
be the other
versus like i don't think it is or whoa
brother what do you think he is and then
you open up a whole can of worms of like
debating
stuff that you don't need to be debating
debating something you can't change
like what am i going to do if he's the
antichrist or not you know what what
does that got to do with the price of
rice in china like you're the obviously
fear is a big part of that like if you
think that you know you live your life
according to fear because we're it's
some bad stuff's about to happen or bad
stuff already happened to a people who
lived back in that those days you know
so um
anyway choosing your battles
and i feel like okay i can hang out with
you guys and not
you guys ever ate mushrooms or something
you know
you guys ever talked to yeah it's
the internet i guess as well just makes
it makes it challenging because
i mean
people get to find you though with the
internet the internet is cool because
you can be whatever you want to be
now those people in your community are
like they're going to talk and yeah that
gets out that way
but what i was saying is that
in that little small meeting and that
those leaders know
but on the internet listen this is who i
am
i'm gonna embrace it listen i listen to
tool they're amazing they got some
beautiful music that
puts that talks about the breath and how
we're connected with each other and with
god through the breath in a song called
pneuma you should listen to it like i'm
going to embrace i don't care if you
tell me not to this is what this is who
i am and so once you do that the
internet has allowed us to do that i
could be i've created a persona i am i'm
accepted i'm loved
it wasn't the whole time but it it you
got the grid to do it and those people
who want to come eat from your table are
going to be googling
my name yeah they're going to go from
this podcast they're going to google
trueseeker and they're going to find
your show
and they're going to resonate with you
and they're going to resonate with some
of the other stuff that that you you
talk about and some of your other guests
and some of your wisdom that you share
and now they're like well i'm gonna i'm
gonna start listening to caleb's podcast
man he's some he he him intrusive are
really good and i've been looking for
this and so then you get 70 then you get
a thousand and you've got all these
people who are looking up these things
that you're
finally
got the confidence to share yeah about
your encounters and they don't have
nobody else to talk to and then they
google
what ha
can an ancestor appear to me is it an
ancestor or a demon and then they may
find your blog where you talked about it
on a youtube video
and and no you caught
bs from
the community of of people who weren't
ready but the person who needed you
who was going crazy trying to figure
this stuff out
that's and then you got your tribe and
then you got your people who were like
you know accept you for you versus
accept you for being
with us or being like us you know
that's good because that's that seems to
be the balance it's like the internet
you know just going back to like
the idea that there is a place to hold
back and there's a place and actually
holding back honors the the it's sort of
like
it's the preciousness of of revelation
and what what is unveiled to you in
secret
um
but then at the same time the way things
are structured and this this is getting
into a little bit of the times we live
in like
um
man i feel like
when i say the church but i don't i
don't mean when i say the church i don't
mean
christ's
christ's mystical body like i'm talking
about christianity as this
sub-genre this kind of like entity in
itself
um
i feel like some of the conversations
that
you know
are happening in certain parts of that
world
and then i go into and i talk to people
who are just pursuing spirituality
people in the normal world and i'm like
they're not having the same conversation
like
sometimes it's like within christianity
there's a fish bowl it's just like we're
talking about things
in in such a way that we've lost touch
we've lost touch with what is really
going on
in the world and and that sounds like a
really strong thing to say but it's like
i have first-hand experience of that
where and i was that myself and it
doesn't mean the law's not speaking and
doing things and whatever
but
we're not
we're disconnected man like we're
disconnected and
you know you've talked about plant
medicines before it's like
yeah it's like
i guess i'm trying to figure out and i
want to ask you more about plant
medicines but it's like
the balance of like you want to withhold
and you want to take people on the right
journey and you want it to be you want
to be attached to christology and all
those things because it's right
and then at the same time you've got to
just put it out on the net you know
you've got to there's a place to do that
because
um
within
mainstream christianity no one's going
to talk about plant medicines
no but they're one's going to but they
are asking questions though
but they're asking questions yeah
they're they're googling they'll never
talk about it um
and uh i get messages from uh
from people christians who uh ministers
and and people are over like radio
christian djs over like pretty big radio
stations messaged me and yeah hey man i
just you know i'm a christian i
appreciate your podcast i listen i can't
tell nobody i listen
but i feel like i'm i feel a connection
because i watched the episode of joe
rogan and he talked about it and i felt
a
connection there then i found you man
and uh i i'm going on a journey this
weekend man so thank you for the work
that you've encouraged me to do and yeah
and you know just by putting yourself
out there
but at first yeah you're gonna get
you're gonna you're gonna catch bs from
people you know in your community um
first they're gonna ridicule you they're
gonna mock you then if it's true if it
remains it's gonna it's gonna remain if
it's built upon that foundation of
christ which is love
every everything is going to be shaken
except what is built upon that and yeah
and um so if all of that stuff produces
love and
has fruit then it's going to remain and
you don't really
care who agrees with it or not again
you'll find that tribe yeah
the mainstream stream christian yeah you
you know when you do that you will like
you will marginalize yourself with them
um
so
that's a that's a decision of like where
you want to be
you know in ministry or
um
what main line but
again
the
christian mystical movements are getting
so big and there's the whole church is
devoted to
to all of this stuff dude and it's
getting so big and they're like they're
doing far out stuff that i would never
even do in churches
or and
i get asked to come on some of these
talks with and on panels of of christian
mystics and they're just like
you know i'm
my my theology as far as like you know
the the cross of christ anyway and the
importance of that is like
um it's really big
and a lot of they're into a lot of weird
stuff and um and it's okay to call it
weird you got to be able to laugh at
yourself you know you got to be able to
laugh at somebody's stuff
um but it's open
you know um like they're cheating
they're doing like yo hey vive hey
chance and
and
facing to the east and west and calling
in the angels from each direction and
these are this is in churches bro and
like
they're getting super far out so
you know it's a good time
to uh
to just embrace your truth and still be
able to do church stuff i still be able
to do praise and worship and and pray
and speak in tongues and just embrace
everything about you and
it's kind of like the same thing with
the the regular church only more open
you know you still got to hold back
there too you know you can't bring
mushrooms for everybody to eat and stuff
like you know like you still have to you
know fill the room
and and and meet people where they are
jesus dumbed himself down to come god
dumped himself down and meet with us man
paul did it you know it there's times
where you got to hold back but when
people are ready and they hang around
enough and they're asking those
questions not to debate but they're
asking those questions because they
really want to know
you know then there's like okay if you
want to know i'll tell you you know what
i'm saying i'm not because jesus also
said you know i didn't i i hid nothing
from you i did nothing in secret yeah
all everything i did was manifest in the
open
but um
you know when people want to know stuff
like it's not like hiding
it from them you know i put when i put
my book out
because i started getting a lot of love
from the christian mystical movement out
of like
of being just i didn't even know it was
a thing you know and they started
starting to see these people and these
and the numbers and and and conferences
and all this stuff and then they started
like getting into my work and and i was
getting asked to come on christian talk
shows and podcasts and even christians
inviting me to their church and this is
how i've been so removed from i'm still
been a christian seeking the lord like
i've all that but i haven't been able to
talk to these people i've had to go to
the new ages and have the conversation
um now i'm able to to do it in a
christian realm and they're inviting me
to their churches and stuff and it's
like wow i didn't change anything yeah
you know it's just but but they have
kind of caught up of being like this
forerunner
to a lot of things that were taboo but
the reason they're not against because
we we're talking about them
and so yeah you know a lot of a lot of
and i think charge is catching up
i was going to say i think as well like
you know the feeling i get from you
listen to your podcast as well
is authenticity
i think like
and that's that's like when someone is
able to have
um conversations about things it's like
when you when you're when you're okay to
publicly have questions
is a good sign that you're pursuing
authenticity
and i think that that's that's kind of
like more the feeling that you get from
someone who's willing to be authentic i
think that's why you know you mentioned
joe rogan's podcast i think that's why
it's so popular because
he's just kind of like all over the
place in the guests he's having the
conversations he's having but there's
this underlying curiosity and he's not
afraid to ask his questions publicly and
that's so attractive to people because
it's not like i this is what i know and
i'm offering the thing that i know it's
like i'm on a journey we're going on a
journey together is um actually creates
such a sense of safety as well
which is like christianity though
because you have to be able to contend
for the faith and give an answer
anytime you're asked even if you and
what's happening if people don't don't
even know the answer they make one up
yeah
yeah kundalini they watch one video on
kundalini spirits and now they're
experts on a christian video
you got to go study from those people
go pick up a book
by
a yogi and see what they say i'll go
listen to yeah apostle so what he said
about the kundalini you're like you
gotta go to firsthand and read man and
people haven't done that
i even better talk to one talk to a
person you talk to him and that's like a
whole different experience because you
realize like because the superior the
superiority complex we can sometimes
have within christianity we realize like
man there's a lot of things
that people in in other spiritual
traditions they either know better than
us
um
or or it's very similar or it's just not
what we think so it's also an important
point but yeah i appreciate that you're
that about you is i think it's the
authenticity that
that is what it seems like you're
pursuing and you're asking these
questions openly
and it actually does
create this this beautiful safety like
it seems contradictory because safety
has been so communicated it's like
when everything's in its right place and
it's like the doctrines are neat and
stuff like that
and
obviously like you you have this you
know the lord you know jesus your
um sense of the cross like the the
person and work of christ is so evident
and i think that's that enables a person
to be
humble and authentic and all those
different things because you're not
defined by
clearly you're not defined by what you
do
you've found there's this inner pursuit
that is that is really evident in the
conversations that you're having so
um
yeah i just really appreciate that man i
feel like it's um it's a real blessing
to to the body and um
and it's been been super encouraging for
me as well in my journey
um
i want to i want to ask you questions
about plant medicines and things like
that and i'm sure the topics we could
just go on and on
um but i feel like it's probably a good
place just to like end the podcast with
that
and um but but it'd be cool for you
like if people are asking questions
about things like that i know that on
your podcast
um
there's you've probably got heaps of
stuff on there that people could search
out or is there something specific that
yeah there's just so it's like
you know you can almost scroll episodes
until something you know catches your um
attention so yeah like
the the thing with that you know like um
obviously like if you want to learn
about it go to somebody who's who's done
it or who's doing it because you got to
you got to be able to research from an
unbiased standpoint the christians are
biased
on many subjects
so if you're if you're a true berean and
you really want to know
yeah
ask the christians
then you got to go and kind of do your
own independent research and ask a yogi
ask somebody who's doing that ask
somebody who's given their life to study
it
um
and that's the beautiful thing with joe
rogan again like
i'm gonna i'm gonna talk to a person get
to pick their brain somebody who studied
like
astrophysics for 40 years
yeah i just know a brief overview this
guy gives gave has given his entire life
to study in this one subject again when
i was mentioning the bible the bible is
an overview
it doesn't tell you how to use crystals
but the bible is full of
of of of stories about crystals and and
and monuments and and the ephod that had
crystals on them and and when the priest
wore the this e5 with all of these these
crystals paired together it put him in
this state where he was able to talk to
god and be able to stand before god like
it maybe can conduct energy the bible
doesn't go into
tutorials on how to use crystals and
which ones do what you got to talk to
the person who's given their 40 years of
their life
sit down with them
like i do have a podcast and just pick
their brain or read their book maybe you
don't want to reach out it's kind of
invasive it's scary to talk to the
person get their book go to their
website watch an interview um but you i
really feel like we have to be able to
um
you know engage both sides of the
conversation versus like people who are
biased you know read
pros cons pros cons
make your educated decision take a
stance what do you feel and the biggest
thing that christianity hasn't done
which we're doing is saying listen i
don't know
i don't know again when you had to have
an answer you made one up there's so
much freedom
hey man i don't know i've heard this and
that and this one i got three theories
and they all make sense there's a
scriptures that prove all of these so
i'm not really sure
ver you know most of those churches no
hard stance nope it's a hard no on that
and they and there's how can it be a
hard stance when all these other
scriptures like contradict what you're
the cross you're dying on no there's
nuance there and we don't know and
that's why they didn't know back then
and it was a conflict of interest as
well
embrace that man
embrace your differences embrace the
unknown and and that will will actually
make you cling closer to christ and know
him in a deeper way because again he's
the life raft that you won't sink and
then you can be like paul listen man
christ crucified that's all i know
i know
when i put my faith in that and i
encounter that i know what it did in my
heart
i know
that it's done that for many other
people i know people walk away from it
you know i know they have different
relationships with it or people say
christ never existed and christianity is
shallow and it's fear-based and
it's a conglomeration of a bunch of
religions listen
i know what it did for me
when i put my faith in christ and that
story
and and how easy it is
to pursue
the divine and that not just to pursue
it but that it's pursuing you
in a
loving loving pursuit that's the gospel
man you know what i'm saying so
like it's a reason it works
you know the the personal presence of
yeah the per the person of jesus man
like is evidence of truth like it's
because everything in you calibrates
yeah the more i study the more confused
i get man you know you think you studied
it to get things figured out but i
started like
i started and i say study i'm talking
about the bible
i'm talking yeah you know i get you i
get you you know and like yeah but but
it's so easy like you said that's that
the beauty of that
everything's cool i love working stuff
up there's there's a different realm
there's a different
area that you get to enter into
um there's more different revelation
there's a lot of things that are privy
to you but there's something about how
easy it is
not to complicate it you know and the
gnostics have complicated it you know
the churches have complicated it and so
we got to make it simple and i was just
thinking about anybody who causes any of
these little ones to stumble with any of
the deep far out
stuff that's too hard like listen it
really does come come down to the
simplicity of the gospel and you can
pray
like you can go into your prayer chamber
and have the most beautiful mystical
experience
than eating any mushroom
that's not to denounce that you know of
stargazing and meeting with angels
that's not to denounce that everything
has its proper place but the basics the
simplicity has to be the foundation
it has to be yeah
that's solid man you can't really go
wrong with that i think yeah most people
don't know it though those gnostics
don't know it you know what i'm saying
and i want them to know it like i want
so i'll talk their language i'll go on
their shows and it's like i want i want
to set up an encounter
for you to meet him and how easy it is
you know
so good man
um
thanks so much man for coming on i
actually have come on man i enjoyed it
bro and um
yeah it's been really fun i'd love to um
just
chuck a bunch of info on the show notes
as well so that people
um can just yeah find find the things
that you're doing and and your book and
all the different things would be
awesome as well yeah and um yeah i'd
love to do it again sometime as well so
be awesome man sounds good um um
just stop the recording today
all right
great no i was gonna say i forgot to say
like when i was setting it up about um
when the church started like
like all the churches were like inviting
me out and wanted me on their podcast
and had all these christians listening
to me when i wrote my book
i almost left out
the ufo alien stuff
and the plant medicine stuff
because like i was starting to get all
of these eyes on me and i was like i
don't want to scare them i don't want to
run them off
but
so i had to talk to a christian mystic
friend of mine who's a pretty big name
in that community
and i was like hey man i just i'm having
a hard time part of me is like
you know i know it's going to rub people
the wrong way i know they're going to
read those chapters and and not want to
deal with me and
i was like should i put it in or leave
it or whatever he's like
like
we love you because you talk about those
things like why yeah yeah yeah why when
it's time to finish the book why would
you try to take it out this is who you
are
and try to hold them hold that back
because of a fear like no that's the
reason people listen is because i'm the
one who talks about that
you know people talk about the other
stuff i'm touching on but those
talking about that from a christian
standpoint
from a believer so yeah people say oh
you shouldn't be you can't look at it
listen people are asking questions and
people are looking
and so
why not give them a christian
perspective somebody who's madly in love
with christ that can talk that's it talk
rationally about the occult who can talk
rationally about
plant medicine versus somebody who hates
god
who thinks christianity is a joke
and they're gonna give you a plant
medicine rundown
no
no so i've set myself up to be
i say i the lord strategically put me
where i'm i'm at in this right
to be that because you think you're
listening to an episode on aliens and
then we're praying at the end and then
you get encountered raptured by god's
love
what the hell just happened i was
watching an episode on on aliens and
this dude prayed
and i got healed like i'm getting those
testimonies through it's like listen
you want church folks i don't care
that
that makes it worth it man and then yeah
because how else are these people
like
that's what i was saying before about
like
christianity can be so disconnected
the conversations they're having is so
disconnected from where your normal
person or at least i know
you know there's the mass population
there's different you know niches
in terms of and he covers all of them
he's the number one he's like the number
one downloaded podcast as far as that so
so like and the conversations he's
having so that means that like those are
conversations that people are having
yeah and
and it's like if we
um
if we can't have that conversation
like those people will not they will not
be reached like
apart from us being able to like jesus
connected like he hung out with
prostitutes he was able to be
in there in their world he was able to
be close to them
and
still remain you know in his holiness
whatever
um
so yeah it is really important and i
think
i think it's the lord as well like i
think the lord is
provoking he is provoking right now
his body is he's break prison break you
know he's like
pulling people out of these constructs
because it's it's dry biscuits it's
tired it's
um it it stops life from flowing yeah um
and it's necessary so
yeah i think it's really important
me and my wife just started going back
to church after
years like 10 years probably or
um we we just moved and um
right down the road but we were like the
church that i got born again at and
started getting going to when i got born
again 20 years ago like uh we started
going back there again and it's scary
for me locally dude just because like i
my reputation precedes me
and people know me and i don't know them
you know it and so for me to be in
churches and stuff is it's scary like
you know they want to pray demons out of
you or why do you you know pulling the
pastor to your side to the side don't
you know there's a witch in the back of
your church and stuff like we want
witches in the church like we want them
like they can get born again you know if
i'm really a witch or something but
so it's made it hard for me to to
to have brothers and sisters and like
discipleship with like older mature
christians you know i've been able to
disciple people and roll stuff up but
having like those
you know pastor friends and stuff which
i'm getting a lot more now
but it's still scary because it can
instantly like
you know somebody look look up your
stuff and go to the pastors and they ask
you to leave and stuff like that which i
know this guy he was our youth pastor so
he
i feel weird in there it's a it's weird
like i don't want to go pray for people
i don't want to i tap in i i get a good
word and and the worship's usually
amazing
um but as far as like how active i am of
doing that stuff i'm still i let i i i
have my platform where i do my thing if
i want to pray for you we'll go live
right now and i'll take prayer requests
live and pray for people live like you
know what i'm saying i don't have to go
up there it's different in person
but um when i host something at my house
or or something like that but
it's really weird like
because the reputation precedes me and
uh
like going uh
like
yeah because i was a i was a yeah i was
a christian rapper and and minister and
like we we traveled a lot and went to a
lot of churches and
i was a a leader and
played a big role in that and like
almost all of them you know what i'm
saying like abandoned me and
called me a devil worshiper and stuff
like that
and uh
they didn't really call me that they
told each other that
you know like i wasn't a part of the
conversation which i was ready to be
because i was studying like how to
prove what i've been learning you know
like let me show you why i'm talking
about orion because it's in the bible
and let me show you what it really means
and
that kind of stuff you know but
those conversations really i never got
to have any of them
because i guess it was people were just
too scared or something