Paul Wallis | Were Humans Created By Aliens According To Genesis? | TruthSeekah Podcast
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXRNr1fjTXE
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ahead and jump into today's discussion,
tonight's discussion. Um joined by my
friend Paul Wallace. Friend, uh Paul,
what's up, man? Welcome to the podcast.
How are you?
Good day, Truth Seeker. Thanks so much
for having me on your show.
Interesting
uh topic to bring to the table, very
near and dear to my heart, for sure, and
ready to dive into it uh with you,
covering your new book, Escaping from
Eden. Does Genesis teach that the human
race was created by God or engineered by
ETs? Very intriguing.
Yeah, I can see that would be close to
your heart with Jordan Maxwell providing
your
uh
endorsement on your book there. That's
fantastic. Yeah, I think he's the one
who opened the door for
for this talk for me. Uh and it's right
up my alley. I really appreciate his
experiences and his his stories, really,
that he brought to the table. And uh you
know, even, you know, diving into some
of Sitchin's work. And for me, I started
with that kind of stuff. And then, you
know, as you know, there wasn't a lot of
Christian Christianity talking about um
the Elohim or being seeded or anything
to do with the angels coming here and
and and and and dealing with mankind.
But, that kind of opened up the door for
me to look into
um much later
um the divine council theory with Dr.
Michael Heiser.
And both of those are like head-butting
each other. Sitchin is wrong. That Dr.
Heiser has that website and stuff. They
kind of counteract one another. I found
my truth in the midst of all the
studying to be right in the middle of
Sitchin and Dr. Heiser. So, looking to
get your opinion on some of that stuff,
too. So.
Well, it's funny because I when I
started out on the path that led to
Escaping from Eden, I actually hadn't
heard of Zecharia Sitchin or Michael
Heiser. Wow. Uh
or and or Jordan Maxwell. I didn't know
any of these names. My way in was really
from the Bible. My background is in
Christian ministry. I was a
a church planter for many years and a
church doctor for many years. I worked
as a theological educator for
Pentecostal uh
um churches in the UK and Australia.
Served as an archdeacon out here in
Australia. And in all that time, I was
working with the Bible. I was training
pastors to interpret the Bible.
And it was really out of that work that
I found myself on a journey
that really got unlocked by some
translation questions. They were the
That was the doorway
down this rabbit hole that led to
Escaping from Eden and to these
what are controversial conclusions in
sort of faith circles. And as I was
doing the research, I started coming
across
Zecharia Sitchin, Michael Heiser,
Mauro Biglino. And I thought, oh
goodness. So, I'm not the first person,
I thought, to have these thoughts.
Uh and what do I do? Should I quickly
read up on all these guys?
And um
at that point, I thought, no, I'm not
going to do that because
I'm on a path here of working out for
myself from a theological start point,
what's going on in Genesis? What's going
on in the Bible? What is the correct way
to interpret all the language we have
here? I really need to follow the
integrity of my own thoughts. And then,
once I've
sort of drawn some conclusions, then I
can look around and see, does anyone
else agree with me? And at that point, I
found, yes, I'm not the first person to
tread this territory. And I think I'm
glad I made that decision because now I
think there's more significance in the
overlap. You know, when you go to
Michael Heiser, he made his own journey.
Sitchin made his own journey. And then,
when you find an overlap, there's a
significance to it.
Yeah. Yeah. And so, that's that's why I
made that choice. So, I still got a lot
of reading to catch up on.
But, it really is that journey through
Genesis and work of translation that led
me to the conclusion that many of the
stories that are religions have curated
as stories about God are really memories
of our ancestors' contact with other
species colonizing planet Earth in the
distant past.
What year was was this stuff taking
place for you where you started to kind
of open up to this broader understanding
and and started to do a little bit more
research? What year was it?
Well,
uh it's I could put it a number of
different start points on, but I think a
really significant seed was sown when I
was 11 years old. Uh because that's when
I encountered the work of Erich von
Däniken.
Uh my mom and dad introduced me to it,
actually. Um at a dinner party, they
were discussing his work.
Chariots of the Gods was charting at
that time. It had been out for about 10
years by that point, but there'd been a
movie, and it was being talked about on
the TV.
And so, they introduced me to his work,
and my ears pricked up because I already
felt
dissatisfied with the explanations I was
hearing of where we came from. It seemed
to me there was a real gap in our
ability to explain ourselves as a
conscious, intelligent, technological
species. I found that religion was a
little bit lazy, and in the answer, oh
well, God made us, we're God's special
creation, that fell short in
explaining how come we're animals, then?
How come we're so obviously one of the
animals? Should How does that work?
And all this commonality that we have
with other animal species,
not quite explained there. And then, the
scientific explanation
also fell short because the only thing
that puts us at the top of the tree on
this planet is our consciousness,
intelligence, and technology. And
science couldn't quite say where that
came from. There was a gap. Erich von
Däniken said
that
an external intervention makes sense of
that gap. That was his thesis. And that
got me going. So, that from the age of
11, that was in the back of my mind.
And the question was there.
And then, I guess the next really
significant thing that happened in terms
of a moment was 2009,
when the
most conservative Pope in my lifetime.
Now, I'm not I'm not a Catholic. I don't
follow the Popes, but I couldn't help
noticing that the most conservative Pope
in my lifetime had called on the
Pontifical Academy of Sciences
to hold a colloquium, which was a
symposium of top theologians and
scholars,
to talk about the theological
implications of contact with other
species.
And then, his spokespeople came out and
met the press, and they
to give them credit, they made a lot of
it. There was a year lead-in to the
event, and then there was a lot of
meeting the press, and they were saying
very loud and clear, we need to be ready
not just to embrace the idea of a
populated universe,
but to be ready to embrace a brother or
sister alien.
Yeah.
And they weren't talking about
discovering moss on a moon of Mars, they
were talking about intelligent
technological alien species turning up.
And the urgency with which that
happened, and this phrase that kept
getting ears, we should be ready sooner
than anyone anticipates.
Uh to embrace a brother or sister alien
got me thinking,
what do they know? Because it looks like
they're preparing us for some
disclosure. It looked like they were
expecting another authority to disclose
that we're in contact, and then they
could say, "Oh, don't worry, everybody.
Remember we covered this. It It It
doesn't change anything. It just gives
us a bigger picture of God."
Yeah. And that caught my attention, and
a gauntlet was really thrown down by the
senior astronomer of the Vatican um
observatory, Reverend Dr. Guy
Consolmagno. He said we shouldn't be
surprised to encounter intelligent alien
brothers and sisters. He said, "Cuz
they're in the Bible. They're in the Old
Testament and the New Testament." And
when that happened, I thought,
"I really got to look into that, because
how could I have missed that?" You know,
I've been For 15 years I've been
training pastors in how to interpret the
Bible. Could I really have missed
something as glaring as aliens in the
Bible?
And so from that moment, I thought,
"I've got to drill down into this."
And it wasn't until
uh 2017
really that that process of research
accelerated, and I realized I was in the
process of writing my next book, and I
realized what direction it was going in.
And the moment I sat down and asked the
translation questions, "Why is this
funny word Elohim a plural word?" That
was the red pill. The word Elohim often
gets translated as God,
but it's a plural word. And so, the
moment I addressed that question and
said, "Well, what happens if we read
that in the plural? What happens to the
stories?" Well, the change that happens
changed my world, and that was the
beginning of the story of escaping from
Eden. Well, I'm going to save you a lot
of time, brother, because when the word
Elohim is used, it means Father, Son,
and Holy Spirit.
Yes.
I'm kidding. I know you've heard that
and continue to hear that.
you're kidding. And I have heard that
from people. Uh because of course the
first time people are confronted with
this information, uh
an initial reaction from a person of
faith can be, "Well, that can't be
right, cuz it disagrees with conclusions
I've already drawn."
Uh and yes, they say, "Well, if there's
the plural, it must mean Father, Son,
and Holy Spirit." The problem with that
is that these Elohim conflict with one
another. They go to war against one
another. Uh some of the Elohim want
human beings upgraded and intelligent
and conscious. Others of the Elohim want
the humans so unintelligent that we
don't even know we're naked. And they go
to war. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit
don't go to war. Um
The Elohim make mistakes. They make
absurd mistakes. They fail to anticipate
things that the reader can see from
from the get-go. So, that's it just
doesn't have any wheels, the argument
that Elohim is Father, Son, and Holy
Spirit. It means, if you just look at
the root meaning, powerful ones. And the
thing that convinced me that that was
the right reading of that word is that
the way the stories change when you read
the God stories in Genesis and further
into the Bible as stories of the
powerful ones, they flip and suddenly
line up in parallel with the Sumerian,
Babylonian, Akkadian, and Assyrian
stories carried on the ancient cuneiform
tablets.
Yeah. It becomes apparent very quickly
that the Bible stories are summary
versions of the stories of the sky
people in the Mesopotamian canon. And
once you've seen that parallel, you
can't go back to seeing it the old way.
Now, we didn't know this until the
1800s, because we couldn't translate
the Mesopotamian stories until the
1800s.
1835 was when we found the translation
key. And so unfortunately,
um the wheels of faith communities and
theological change can grind very slow.
And so there are lots of people in the
churches who are unaware
of these parallels, unaware of these
source documents, unaware that the
editors of the Bibles they're reading
mostly believe
that the biblical texts are based on
stories of sky people in the
Mesopotamian stories.
Which is every creation story, almost,
right?
Yes, it is. That's right. You can go to
almost any culture around the world, and
you will find parallels with these
stories. And as I started researching
Escaping from Eden,
that was the evidence that for me built
up and up and up that there is a memory
of what happened, of where we came from,
who we were in contact with, and
different cultures have found different
ways of curating the same basic story,
the same memories, memories of the same
traumas that our ancestors experienced,
and memories of some of the same details
about those who came, modified our
ancestors, and governed over us.
I got so many questions for you, and I
can we could just keep going, but I want
to I want to paint the picture for the
for the person like who's the first time
hearing this. And we're we're well
studied in this stuff, but for the the
person who this is their first time
hearing this, going back to Genesis in
the Garden of Eden, and the actual title
of the book, like Escaping Eden Eden, um
who were our creators then? If it wasn't
God, what are you saying that aliens
created us like and put put humans here?
What What are you actually saying moving
forward?
Yeah, it's a very layered story.
Um there are many places you could stop,
but if we start in in Genesis 1,
uh what's very interesting uh that's
happening there, and it happens in other
mythologies and ancestral narratives
around the world, is we've got something
that looks like a creation story. And
everybody's familiar with the let there
be light moment. And then we have the
sun and the moon and the stars, and then
uh the planet gets uh made and improved,
and life on Earth is developed.
Just go back and read that again,
because before the first word of
creation is spoken,
the planet already exists.
So, before light, before sun, moon,
stars, planet Earth already exists,
flooded and shrouded in darkness.
And many of the ancient narratives begin
that way with a devastated planet Earth,
and then somebody turning up to
rehabilitate it.
So, um Genesis follows that pattern.
Many of the stories begin with the
separation of the waters, the clearing
of the skies. So, all of a sudden we can
see the sun again and the moon and the
stars. And then the waters are separated
into salt water, fresh water, land is
cleared. You can hear this in
Mesoamerican,
African,
Genesis, Mesopotamian stories. They all
have these same themes and these
Zulu as well. That's right. And really
interesting details about the land being
cleared by vortices of wind. Well,
that's in Genesis, because what happens
is the powerful ones turn up in a ruach,
a word that often gets translated as
spirit, but a bit of translation work
reveals that's a craft.
It's a craft that hovers over the
waters, and that's where they begin
their work. Ruach gets used further in
the Bible. It's in Ezekiel. It's in the
stories of Moses. And Ezekiel gives us
great detail on what a ruach looked
like,
what color it was. It was silver. It had
a glass-like canopy. And he describes
the wheels of the ruach in such detail
that NASA has a patent on those wheels
and uses them on some of its crafts on
Mars. So, what you've got is beings
arriving in technology
who then do work on the planet. And
these memorializations
uh represent the fact that this is an
eyewitness account that of our that our
ancestors have curated. So, they were
already here in some shape or form. And
what those who arrived in these stories
do is not create our ancestors,
but modify them.
And that's how the story goes. So, where
life originated, I now hold the view
that Francis Crick held, the
co-discoverer of DNA. He believed that
the genetic coding for conscious
intelligent life landed on the planet
because it's been seeded through at
least this part of the cosmos. The Zulu
have a wonderful story of that. And that
theory is called panspermia. And a lot
of very serious credentialed scientists
hold that view. The European Space
Agency has spent more than $8 billion
testing the theory by sending probes up
onto comets. So,
the genetic coding arrives. Whenever it
lands on a hospitable planet, it will
result ultimately in conscious life.
And then the stories of our mythologies
seem to cut in
when some neighbors appear, probably the
result of the same panspermia, the same
seeding, and then modify what they find
here. And the story suggests that they
found something
Yeah. along the lines of a primate and
modified the primates into us. If you
read the Mesoamerican version of the
story in the Popol Vuh, it's very
specific that uh apes and us share a
common ancestor and that apes and us
were part of the same experimentation
that was performed by these visitors.
So, um that may be uh uh
a bit of a paradigm shift. It certainly
was for me reading that, but it caught
my attention that centuries before
Darwin
the ancient Mayan culture had made this
connection.
weren't saying that we were descended
from apes, but saying that we both were
descended from a shared ancestor. And
that's what science is telling us today
in DNA research.
Um
a lot more questions. Um
to be clear, there there's some people
even in chat who are saying Anunnaki. Is
this the same thing as the Anunnaki or
the the Elohim? Is this the same thing
or is it a little bit different? I've
always thought them a little bit
different in my mind, but would you say
that this is would be the same thing?
Yes, the stories that people know as the
Anunnaki stories, they are the stories
from the Sumerian canon. In Escaping
from Eden, I refer to them as sky people
because the glyph that's used, the
little uh
cuneiform marking that's used on the
tablets to indicate these beings simply
indicates the sky.
And the flow of the story tells you that
they are people or beings who've come
from the sky. And yes, those are the
Anunnaki narratives.
Um most most uh stories of of the
Anunnaki paint them to be like some type
of bad guys, like these uh rulers that
created humans to mine gold is kind of
the narrative that comes comes along
with that word. Would this Would this be
similar to the the the Elohim in in our
story?
I think that is part of the story. And
yes, the mining gold connection is there
in Genesis, as well. It's very easy to
miss.
But if you read the Eden story in
Genesis,
um
we're told for some reason
we're told the location of Eden where
the humans are safe in this enclosed
zone. And then we're also told that it's
conveniently handy for some key mineral
deposits.
Well, who on earth needs to know that?
Adam and Eve in their blissful uh
innocence in the Garden of Eden don't
need to know about key mineral deposits,
do they? Uh but there is another phrase
in Genesis that says that the powerful
ones put the humans to work.
And you put those two together and
there's a little hint that that work
wasn't like gardening.
And yes, I think there there's real
evidence for ancient ancient gold mining
in Southern Africa that appears to be a
couple of hundred thousand years old.
Now, science says that our ancestors
were here at that time say looking
pretty much as we do today, but not
quite as smart, not smart enough to farm
and build cities, but smart enough to
work in someone else's mine. So, yes,
those stories do join up, but I think
you see the word Anunnaki or sky people,
it's interesting because it doesn't
necessarily tell you that we're talking
about a single demographic.
Anunnaki, some people have suggested it
would be helpful for us simply to
translate that as astronaut.
Um because that's what we're looking at,
people who've come here from somewhere
else, people who've come from the
heavens.
And you don't have to get far into the
Mesopotamian stories or into the Genesis
story before you realize there are
factions and there's conflict and you
may have a number of ET species bumping
up against each other. And by the time
you get to the stories of the sky
council
or heavenly council which exists in um
ancestral memory all around the world
and it's there in the Bible, too. It's
very clear you've got very different
demographics. You've got energy-based
beings, iconic being uh iconic beings,
and then you've got physical visitors,
as well. All sitting in council,
conflicting with one another over the
management of project Earth and project
humanity. And there are other conflicts,
too, around hybridization in Genesis 6
that suggest you've got a number of
different populations, some who may be
here purely for the gold.
Others because of other
things to do with the planet. Others may
be for things to do with us. And that's
all part of why there is this conflict
rolling on in the background in our
distant past and maybe even today.
As um this conversation would would
scare some some people, this is the
first time they're hearing some talk
like this
um about the Bible, about the creation
stories, and um
and and I right when I go to say this,
I'm reading the chat, they say, "What
about Jesus?" I want to interrupt and I
want to interject because what sets you
apart from most people who talk about
the Anunnaki and Genesis 6 in this type
of way as someone who vouches for these
stories, right? Um you're a Christian,
you are a believer, and that's one of
the main reasons why I was excited to
have you on. You weren't someone trying
to debunk the Bible, disprove Jesus
never existed and was a copy and these
kind of things. You're actually uh a
born-again believer. So, um that's I
think that's very interesting to note
and uh and you know, so people know
where you're coming from, that you have
a faith in the Bible in Christ and in
God and those things.
Yeah, that's right. My agenda is not to
debunk the Bible, it's to understand the
Bible. And I
it's funny because I would agree with a
lot of what debunkers might have to say,
but my agenda is not to deconstruct or
destroy, but really to understand. And
all my life as a preacher, that was my
approach. I want to know, what did the
text really say? Where did that text
come from? Who wrote that? Why does it
say that? And I'm really just trying to
get to the bottom of things. I It's an
obvious question to ask, what about
Jesus? Because there's no question that
this investigation has reframed my
understanding of God, reframed my
understanding of Jesus. I still am a
person who likes Jesus. I I find him
very credible. I like his teaching. I
seek to live my life by his teaching,
but I can see that we have framed our
understanding of Jesus very badly and it
flows from the translation problems in
the Old Testament. Right at the
beginning of Christianity, there was a
big debate
over whether Christianity should
re-endorse the Hebrew scriptures.
A big debate over whether they should be
glued on to the teachings of Jesus to
make a Bible of Old Testament plus New
Testament. And there were some really
significant church fathers right at the
beginning
saying, "No, don't do that because
we don't endorse the 6th century BCE
edit of those books that turned the
because there are distortions in it. And
the distortions are these.
What was happening in that that that
editing, and there's a very broad
scholarly consensus that this editing
happened in the 6th century BCE to
harmonize it to make it a book that
taught a single theology. There is only
one God. There is only one source of all
things. Well, that's great and I agree
with that.
But that led them to try and airbrush
out
of the old old stories any other kinds
of higher beings. Airbrush out what
looked like too many gods and airbrush
out what was actually the memory of ET
contact. And they airbrushed it out by
translating Elohim in some texts where
they're doing wicked things
as or they're on the wrong side as
demon, false god
chieftain. And then in texts where
Elohim is clearly in charge, they're
translated as God.
The problem with that is that you end up
with God doing abominable things. And
you end up with a God who cannot be
morally questioned. You end up with a
God who who will pronounce the death
penalty for eating an apple or genocide
people cuz he's decided he doesn't like
them anymore or bomb the human race back
into an animal state because they built
a building that's too tall or tell a man
to kill his only son and then only tell
him at the last second not to do it
after all. These are the distortions
that arise when we translate Elohim as
God and it's a total distortion.
These church fathers didn't want to
accept that because it makes God a
monster.
And then that monster is supposed to be
the God that Jesus reveals. It's a total
mismatch. And I think actually anyone
who's got um
a regard for the teachings of Jesus
will have huge questions already about
these ancient texts because if Jesus is
showing us what God is like, then he
can't be this unforgiving
um genociding, unpredictable, punitive,
horrible being that seems to be revealed
in the stories as we have them
translated. So, for me, Jesus is
actually still a real anchor point for
me cuz I I love his teaching.
But, I think we need to reframe him,
get rid of the old framing of those old
stories, and then also understand how
empire hijacked Christianity
using that angry god image to turn
Christianity into obedience
versus sin,
worship versus idolatry,
heaven versus hell. I think these are
all narratives designed to control and
minimize human beings, and the empire
thought we can work with that kind of
Christianity.
And, indeed, they did.
Go- going back to Genesis in the Old
Testament, and we have the
the L or the Elohim, the Elo. Um,
and there's different
I guess races, different types of
angels, and and and different rankings
and things like that. Um, where is God
in this? Because a lot of times we read
you know, in the English we just get
God, and we get God for when we're
talking about ghost in some places, we
get God if they're talking about Azazel
in some cases, like Astaroth is a god.
Like, we're getting
it says God did this. Sometimes it's a
capital G, sometimes it's a small G, and
you're supposed to know who it is, but
as far as
the L and then what we know to be like
the almighty, all-knowing
uh God, some would even say that that's
not Yahweh, that it's something even
beyond Yahweh. Like, Yahweh was another
L himself or a creator god that was over
um you know, the land. So, what where
where does like the God fit in in the
midst of smaller gods in the song and
dance of the scriptures?
Sure.
Well, the Apostle Paul did us a great
service when he defined God in his
wonderful sermon that he preached in
Athens, and it's recorded in Acts 17. He
described God as the source of the
universe.
Uh so, that's what I mean when I use the
word God, and I don't use the word God
for anything else in the universe.
I mean the source. The Apostle Paul
meant the same.
And Mauro Biglino, who is a
very eminent Bible translator, he worked
on Vatican-approved interlinear Bibles
where the translation has to be very
very literal,
his view is that God, the source,
doesn't make any appearance in the Old
Testament at all, that it's all stories
about powerful ones, about
extraterrestrials.
And my view is is very close to his
view.
Uh if you read the Yahweh stories, what
I would say is this, that wherever we
find Yahweh appearing as an active
character in the texts, we are looking
at an Elohim. Yeah. We're looking at a
powerful one. Yahweh refers to himself
as a powerful one.
Yahweh is referred to as a powerful one
in the Ten Commandments. You shall have
no other powerful ones. Worship only
Yahweh. Joshua says, "Reject the
powerful ones that Abraham and Sarah and
your ancestors served on the other side
of the river, and serve only Yahweh."
Yahweh gets really teed off, apparently,
when a king who's broken his back wants
to know if he's going to live, and he
sends his servants to try and get a
prognosis from the powerful one of
Ekron.
Uh you know, a neighboring place with
foreigners living in it, and Yahweh
says, "Is there no Elohim here that you
could talk to?" pointing to himself.
So, there's a proof text that Yahweh is
an Elohim. And in all the texts where he
is an active character, we're looking at
a powerful one.
My view is a little different to Mauro's
because I believe by the time you get to
the end of the Old Testament
and listen to some of the prophets,
I think you're beginning to hear a
vision of God the source,
like Jesus talked about, like the
Apostle Paul talked about.
A source of only one God, God the
source. And when they edited um the Old
Testament,
the Hebrew scriptures, that was the view
they were trying to paste across the old
stories. So, hats off for that,
but uh hats on again because they
obscured the extraterrestrial stories
that their ancestors had curated for us
to know about.
So, when we read the Psalms and we hear
about, you know, King David and and the
different psalmists say, "Praise him
with the timbrel. Praise him, all you
people." You know, and these different,
you know, how marvelous is our God who
created the heavens and who, you know,
we read stuff about in Job how he
created the the stars and it can bend
back the,
you know, Orion and the Pleiades and
things like that. Is that talking about
the essence of God, the spirit of God
behind everything, or or is are they
talking about Yahweh
and some of the other creator gods?
Oh, that's a great question.
I think David and the other psalmists
are talking about both.
And I think the ideas are really fused
and confused uh
in those Psalms and songs.
It's unmistakable that there is a cosmic
vision of God in some of those Psalms,
but some of the Psalms are very rooted
in the history of warfare between Yahweh
and the other Elohim. So, you I think
you've got both threads.
Uh that's what makes it such a
fascinating topic. Both threads are
there.
now like when you get into like like a
lot of the Hindu Hindu traditions and
stuff like that, you kind of get this
all of these gods are emanations of the
one.
Like, they're just different. Like, this
is a warring aspect of a god. This is
the loving aspect of a god. Almost we
kind of have something similar like that
in the Catholic faith with the different
not popes, but the different saints.
This is the saint of virtue. This is the
saint of childbearing. Pray to that
saint to kind of touch this part of God.
Um would would you think that that
there's something like that in in the
Old Testament with the different gods
who are an emanation of the one? For me,
I think everything and everyone is an
emanation of sort, the good, the bad,
the ugly, all of it.
Yes. That's how I feel. But, would you
Does it paint that picture a little bit?
That's a good question. I haven't been
asked that question before. I absolutely
agree with what you're saying there,
Truthseeker. It's it's absolutely um a
foundational view of mine now that that
everything in the universe is an
emanation, an expression of the source.
And that was the vision of God that the
early Christians had who lent towards
Plato because the church fathers I
mentioned before who were saying, "Let's
not glue the Hebrew scriptures on." were
almost saying, "Let's glue Plato on
instead because
he's got a really full understanding of
what's going on. He's pulled together
the Eastern understanding that you just
referenced with the Western. He's got
this beautiful cosmic understanding of
what God is,
where everything came from, and it
frames the story of Jesus beautifully. I
agree with them. And I think by the time
we get to Jesus, we see that Jesus is
really unpacking a lot of that thought.
And so, that applies, as you rightly
say, not just to us as being expressions
of God, but visitors, too. And yes,
there are hints that you've got Elohim
in the Hebrew stories who are the the
healing ones.
And then you've got others that are the
hybridizing
ones, and others that are the warfaring
is really worth probing. I haven't yet
taken the time to really get in to the
Vedas and the Sanskrit texts. I would
love to do that because I'm beginning to
become aware of
aspects of
that wisdom that made its way into Plato
and that made its way into the writings
of not only the apostles, but there are
hints of it in some of the later Hebrew
and Greek Hebrew writings as well.
There's so much in that melting pot. Uh
so, ask me again next time we talk, and
I'll know a little bit more about that.
Yeah. Um you know, with all this, like I
I
you know, take a lot of the Bible
literal,
but I have a huge place in my heart for
allegory in the Old Testament. Like, the
deeper meanings of my spiritual walk
played out, the hero's journey with each
individual, with King David. When I got
to face my giants, when I will I
sacrifice that thing that's closest to
me that I don't want to let go of. Like,
will I give it up only to receive
something better kind of thing. Like, in
each of these stories, like we see a
mirror as we as we're reading this about
about ourselves. Um where do you stand
on on the allegory
woven within those stories as well?
See, you have said that beautifully, and
this is the reason why I'd want to say
very clearly, I'm not a debunker of the
Bible because there is phenomenal depth
and wisdom in it. And even those editors
who did that redaction were
communicating something really important
and powerful. And what you just said
about the hero's journey,
it it relates to how I wrote Escaping
from Eden because
the last sort of prompt telling me,
"Paul, sit down, drill down into this,
work out what's really going on." Was
when I preached through
the stories of beginnings in Genesis in
a church I was working in in Victoria.
And I began to think, "Wait a minute.
This is the hero's journey told over and
over and over again." I I started
reading the story of Adam and Eve and I
thought, "Hold on, that's
that's really the same as Abraham's
story. That's that's really the same as
Noah's story. That's David's story.
But that's John the Baptist's story.
What's going on here?" And realized that
there is this
incredible depth of understanding
that has been layered into these stories
so that you can take the story of say
Abraham
and just read it in a literal plain
meaning kind of way and there'll be
information in that. And I love reading
it that way because when I read it that
way, there's an account of close
encounters with sky people. A very
significant encounter.
But it's been told by a theologian.
So there'll be other theological layers
in it as well. And what you say about
the hero's journey, it's so worth
probing. It defines the story of Jesus
as well. He's got like the ultimate
hero's journey. So I think that lens is
a really useful one to bring to many
many of our world mythologies, the Bible
included.
And how you kind of mentioned a while
ago where you said that you know, almost
like alluding to if this world was
destroyed and rebuilt then these stories
that were in our DNA and and crafted
like they all it just keeps coming
through the lore.
No matter where they are. These people
who have not, you know, physically
touched or represented, but you know,
been close to each other on the earth
and they all had the same story. They
they remember. There's a remembering.
And I feel the same way with with the
hero's journey. Like if this place was
destroyed and comes back, these stories
of this dying and being reborn and the
triumph and overcoming obstacles, it's
in every movie. It's in Star Wars. It's
in the Bible. And I just feel like that
like there's something powerful about
owning your story and overcoming your
fears and overcoming your enemies and
those things. Which is from Genesis to
Revelation as a whole and then from each
prophet, minor prophet, you know,
layperson, you know, they all had their
own journey that they went through. And
you know, Jesus is like beckoning us to
take up our cross as well, right?
Because we have our own hero's journey
that we must die and be reborn and
choose love, you know, just like Luke
Skywalker and those guys. There were so
many parallels cuz during my whole
awakening and and research and study, I
was watching Star Wars for the first
time. And there's so many parallels to
the scriptures that it's uncanny. One of
the things that that you bring to the
table, reincarnation and channeling and
things like that. Um listen, I talk
about all that stuff in my book too
because it's in the Bible.
It's in the Bible and people don't even
know it. And
and when I found this stuff out, like it
was I seen it in in Star Wars. Like they
have little things of let me teach you
to commune with your teacher who came
before you. And Yoda takes Luke
Skywalker to and teaches them how to
well
Obi-Wan and teaches them how to commune
with Qui-Gon Jinn from behind the grave.
And then we read the scriptures when
Jesus was going into deep levels of
prayer upon the mountain when we kind of
got to follow him at the Mount of
Transfiguration, we got to see what he
was doing.
And he had this visitation where he was
meeting with his elders that were
teaching him from beyond the grave when
he would go into prayer and meditation.
Yeah, that's powerful. And see, George
Lucas is a very interesting case in
point because not only do you have
layers and layers of ancient mythology
being retold in Star Wars,
you've also got information like
the Death Star. No one had seen Iapetus
or Mimas, which are the spitting image
of the Death Star until oh, when was it?
The 1980s,
I think. There's a little blurry image
we had for the first time.
And then 2004 was the first time we
could see that the Death Star was the
spitting image. So how did George Lucas
have that image
in 1976? Scriptwriters
do sometimes get fed
information that has not yet been
released to the public.
And George Lucas may have had some of
that, but I believe that George Lucas
has talked about channeled information
going into the mix of Star Wars. And I
believe that.
And I actually think that's where the
image of the Death Star came from.
Channeling is in the Bible, you're quite
right. And it's one of those little
anomalies that that believers skip over
when they're reading the Bible because
it's a it's outside of the frame of the
orthodox mainstream. But if you read
John's letters in the New Testament,
he's got a little helpful guide to do
with channeling.
And makes very clear that channeling was
part of the early Christian experience
before the empire narrowed it all down
to this religion of worship and
obedience.
I think that the Bible or inspired
writing is something we would call auto
You know what I'm saying? Automatic
writing or channeled writing where
you're getting inspired
by the Holy Spirit or by God. And so I
always say in my stuff like I channel
the heart of God, the heart of the
Father. Like we're channeling his heart.
What would he say to his people? To
speak to them in love and to build them
up and things like that. So it you know,
it's not that far outside of the realm
of understanding and when you're
thinking about channeling information.
I believe in that. I believe that
sometimes when we get into storytelling
mode, we
are actually beginning
without necessarily realizing that's
what we're doing.
And sometimes we tell the truth in
fiction very consciously. Sometimes we
tell the truth in fiction without
knowing that's what we're doing.
I don't think there's that I feel like
there's there's not anything that you
can make up and and try to bring it to
the table in fiction that it did not
already exist because
Yeah. with that understanding, man,
we've seen some really interesting
stuff. And I've interviewed people who
have had encounters with any type of
entity
that you can think of, you know. And and
I've had so many encounters myself, but
it's this place of having faith or
believing that it's true and then it
shows itself to you. And so the
channeling, the angels, the demons, if
you believe it to be true, what happens?
It shows itself to you.
You know, there's people
right. You have That's right. You have
to have some kind of a framework to
understand what you're seeing.
Or understand what you're experiencing.
And it's why for me, for instance, when
Escaping from Eden came out earlier this
year, I started being contacted weekly
and some weeks every single day by
people who had had anomalous
experiences, not necessarily of ETs, but
anomalous experiences that they couldn't
talk about and they thought they could
talk to me about it. So they contacted
me. And people began asking me, "Paul,
have you ever had a close encounter?
Uh you know, with an ET?"
And early on, my answer was, "No, I
haven't. I know a lot of people who
have."
But then my answer started to shift
because as I heard more and more
testimony, I realized, "Wait a minute.
There was that funny thing that happened
to me
uh back in 1985. And then that funny
thing. And that funny thing." And I
began joining the dots and realized that
I had a number of experiences
that I had never understood
because I didn't have the framework to
understand it. I had some experiences
that I thought, "I don't understand it.
It must have been demonic." Cuz that was
one of my boxes. Or I had that
experience, I don't understand it. Must
have been angelic. Cuz that was one of
my boxes. Or that must have been God.
Now I've got more boxes. I realize there
are more kinds of entity and reality and
dimensionality to the universe. And I
can look back and say,
"Wow, actually those were ET encounters.
I just didn't have the language for it."
So the language we have in our heads
really can shape what we think we're
experiencing. And that's one of the
reasons I wrote Escaping from Eden to
try and break the taboo to put the
language of um
a populated universe back on the table
so people can begin at telling their own
stories
and hearing from others. And I think
that will shift the world view of many
if we can talk and listen in that
open-minded way.
Um my my next question, I think the two
kind of kind of tie together a little
bit, but
um what about shamanic experiences? And
so like seeing some of the the the the
primitive like spirituality
of the Bible, which is forgotten, you
know. And I think that we can look at
the other cultures and see some similar
things that they're doing, whether it's
transcendental meditation, whether it's
fasting. Like there's a bunch of like
intense spirituality that that was
practiced in the Bible that we look at
it now as primitive. Some of it I feel
like made it over to the charismatic
movements and the Pentecostal movements,
the Quakers and shaking and dancing and
and shouting but then getting really
still and quiet and allowing God to
speak to you and there was a lot of like
really
deep spirituality that was in the Old
Testament that we look over and and
forget. Do you have any of those
examples where we would we would call
them shamanic or they would appear to be
that way?
Definitely. And it's so interesting how
all this joins up. Uh first of all
because a lot of shamanic traditions
have language for other dimensional
beings and extraterrestrial beings.
Um there is shamanism in the Bible. It's
It's
in a way you've got to go looking for it
but you start reading the stories of the
prophets, start looking at what the
instructions were to priests and you
realize
that you've got a pattern of shamanism
there. But there is a use of plants, of
smoke,
technology, silence, dance, vibration.
Um
it occurs in shamanism around the world
and it is there in the Hebrew tradition
as well. What made me make the
connection with shamanism was when I
read the Popol Vuh which is the Mayan
story of where we all came from.
And like many of the stories of
humanity's evolution, their story is
that we were engineered from a primate
ancestor and then upgraded upgraded
upgraded until we were us plus
us plus
precognition, telepathy, remote viewing,
self-healing.
And the engineers as they're called in
the Popol Vuh, the visitors
said, are a little bit difficult to
manage."
I mean, how do you enslave or herd a
creature that's got precognition? I
mean, you're you're on a losing wicket.
So they decided we've got to downgrade
these humans.
And so they created a vapor that when it
was sprayed over human populations
damaged our neurological connections and
brought us back down to a 3D world and
our five physical senses.
What's interesting about that, how it
connects with shamanism, is that the
same culture that curated that story of
the final downgrade
has curated all kinds of practices to
re-upgrade our experience.
And so in the Mesoamerican tradition,
you've got psychoactive teas that are
designed to do exactly that, make us
more conscious, allow us to see beyond
the the physical limitation of our
locality.
Psychoactive teas that mean we can
interact with other kinds of being, that
we can begin to see ourselves as a
consciousness that precedes this life
and and follows it. So that kind of
shamanism is very connected with this ET
narrative.
I My ears pricked up when I read that
because I already knew about this
syndrome
a neurological syndrome called acquired
savant syndrome which is where people
have an accident, they get a brain
injury, there's a central nervous system
event and it actually releases
phenomenal skills that they didn't have
before, mathematical skills, a new
language they couldn't speak before,
musical, artistic ability they didn't
have before, very very objective shift
in the upwards direction. And it's so
strange, how can an injury make a human
being cleverer? And the neurologists who
study this, Darold Treffert of Marion
University, has more than 70 cases of
this that he's tracked.
You see, our science baffles at that.
But the mythology of the Popol Vuh says
that's perfectly understandable.
We all have those higher capacities but
they've been put into the off position.
Shamanism, mystical traditions are all
about turning the inhibitors off,
re-upgrading us. And so you can find
psychoactive teas, smoke and smoking
ceremonies, use of vibration, chanting,
music, dance, controlled conscious
breathing. These are elements of
shamanism in cultures with no contact
with each other apparently all around
the world. And that is what they're
aiming at, getting us more conscious,
more intelligent, better able to
self-heal. And many people who practice
those things, myself included, would say
it does release these abilities.
I can say I've experienced
um
fragments, fragmentary moments of remote
viewing, precognition, telepathic
connection through using those mystical
and shamanic modalities. And I find that
really exciting. And to begin to honor
those traditions instead of talking
about witch doctors and seeing them as
primitive and so on and so forth. No,
they have curated something really
really important. If we could all live
more intelligently on this planet, what
would that look like?
The um
the evil aliens um
are wicked rulers or whoever, why is
this stuff forgotten? Why is this
scheduled one substance that will lock
you up forever if they catch you with
any of some of these things that we're
talking about, the plant medicines and
shamanic medicines and and it's
forgotten, the church calls it um evil,
wicked. Um who's running the show? You
know, is there are there I feel like all
sources say the bad guys are are running
this thing at the at the top levels of
of schooling, of society, of of
government, of the pharmaceutical
industries, like that these people do
not have our best interest in mind and
want to
you talking about ruling us, they're
definitely the ruling class of what we
have. Who are these people? We call them
our presidents, we call them our
dictators, who are they?
Yes.
I think the more you read world
mythologies and ancient ancestral
narratives,
the more you start thinking, are these
guys writing about 2020?
Because the themes really are the same.
If you just go to Genesis for instance
and you look at what the the sky council
is debating over in Genesis,
they're debating over
how healthy should the human beings be,
what access should they have to medical
cures, how long-lived should they be,
how intelligent should they be, how much
access to information, how much
awareness and access should they have to
us, the powerful ones.
These are all the debates they have and
it seems to me they're the same debates
being had
in the 21st century.
Access to clean and safe drinking water,
access to safe food, access to
medication, access to education, access
to uh the truth of what's going on.
These are all live issues. Is it a
coincidence
that these are the same live issues?
Genesis suggests that there is this
cabal of other species who all have a
stakeholding in project Earth and
project humanity and they're conflicting
over it then. Is that story told to tell
us why things work the way they do
today?
And uh my suspicion is yes, it's a story
about now just as much as then. And then
there's the question of well, how does
this
relate to the power structures we can
see?
Cuz there's a very interesting moment
that comes if you follow the stories of
the Bible where you've got the powerful
ones seemingly running the show
but all of a sudden they're not there
anymore.
You've just got the priesthoods. You've
just got the technology, you've got the
Ark of the Covenant, you've got the Urim
and Thummim, you've got people going and
consulting their totems, but where
actually are the powerful ones?
And that story
anyone who's watched the the original
series of of Star Trek knows that story
got told a couple of times where it
turned out things were being run by the
priesthoods but the gods had
disappeared.
But it raises a really interesting
question, the one you just asked, who's
in charge? Why are these the issues?
And why are they the issues in 2020
after we've had, you know, revolutions,
we've got democracy,
we've got the media.
What Yeah, clean energy, exactly. Why is
this still an issue? And you see, clean
energy is a really good um
good illustration of the question
because Ed Mitchell, the sixth man to
walk on the moon,
as a NASA alumnus, he would have been
bound by layer on layer of official
secrets laws and yet he was very
outspoken in championing the cause of
disclosure and he said one of the things
that motivated him was that the human
race should be benefiting from clean
free energy which he believed was
available through our technological
contact with ET species. And that's what
he was allowed to say. So goodness only
knows what he was not allowed to say.
Now, if you listen to him and you come
to that conclusion,
then you come back to the question of
why is that technology suppressed and
who's suppressing it?
Who and by what authority has made the
decision we're not going to have free
energy and we're going to be enslaved to
oil companies and so on and so forth.
We see the conflict over clean energy
playing out in our politics
but is the root of it actually somewhere
else?
You can see it also I I talk about this
in the sequel to escaping from Eden.
There is a conflict on planet Earth
right now
between two models of farming.
There's the traditional model of farming
which is rotational, natural, organic,
sustainable.
And then you've got an industrial model
where you have infertile soil and you
need petrochemicals to grow your food
and then you have to buy patented foods
every year to grow them. Those are two
different models of farming and my
studies in escaping from Eden and for
its sequel suggest to me that those
conflicts originate off planet and in
cultures that came from somewhere else.
It's interesting. Um
I think they I think these these
so-called leaders have you know
malicious intent and are feeding us
things that our bodies weren't meant to
eat and they're okay with signing off on
stuff. I mean it's the list goes on and
on and on. Um Just just not to make it
too bleak. As something I forgot to say
though is is worth remembering on that
council there's a spectrum. There's a
spectrum of beings. There's some who
have no empathy for humanity at all and
there are others who I believe are here
because they are concerned for us and
they are advocating for us and there's
been this strange kind of stability and
a stability of non-disclosure for at
least 70 years because there is a a
power balance. But a little bit of hope
because I think there is a positive ET
presence
uh uh
that's involved in the story of humanity
right now as well.
Um I mean some people with you know I
mean how do you choose though? Do we
vote these these individuals in? Surely
not.
The Democrat and the Republican is is
one good and one bad because the church
would definitely tell you that the
Democratic Party is the satanic
God-hating party and the Republican is
the God-fearing you know keep God in
school like
traditional like they they literally see
it like that for sure.
But that's not what you're saying,
right? Not We can't elect our our gods,
right?
Uh no, we can't and I I think one of the
things that
uh it
when people get this
um paradigm shift and they realize there
is an ET presence that's been here a
long time and there are layers of
government that know about it, it can be
a very deflating moment cuz you can feel
so disempowered by that. And as you
begin to absorb the implications of it,
you realize
how
little we're able to affect through our
democratic structures. Uh democracy I
think achieved some wonderful things um
particularly after democratic reforms in
the 1800s right up until when I was a
young boy and since that time we've seen
power shift away from democratic
structures again and it's becoming
depressingly clear that there is an
elite that stands above democracy and we
see it reflected in in the power of
corporations, but we also
uh understand that it's happening at a
covert level. The mythologies tell us
this. I I've I've come to conclude that
is the case. And so my questions have
had to shift because when I was younger
I was hopeful
that political processes could really
bring uh reform and positive change cuz
I'd seen a little bit of that as a boy.
Now I'm not very hopeful. I think our
democratic structures have really been
hijacked.
Um and so my question has to shift to to
how do I live in this world?
How do we live in this world? This world
where there has been the sky council
present all this time. How do we have
the best, most conscious human
experience we can? How do we empower
ourselves? And I think that peer-to-peer
conversation and disclosure is really
important in this whole process because
if we simply allow ourselves to be made
um too busy by the world of work or
syllabus bound in the world of
education, then we won't look uh above
the parapet and see a much bigger
picture. This is why I love what you're
doing, Truth Seeker. I think your show
and shows like this are really really
important in the 21st century because
it's how we empower ourselves. Talking,
listening, getting the bigger picture,
understanding who we are
and knowing that our power doesn't come
from our superiors.
Doesn't come from the governments over
us. It comes from who we are and our
relationship to the cosmos, our
relationship to consciousness and
intelligence. And that's more and more
where my confidence and my hope comes
from.
Um it you know they've been here the
whole time and all we had to do was stop
and look up or stop and look within. One
or the other, but we're so focused on
you know these things that you've
mentioned out here and it's very well
it's very much a matrix that keeps you
locked in that you can't literally all
you have to do is just like stargaze for
just a couple days or something. Go out.
true.
And it what how hard is that to say hey
I'm going to spend 7 hours outside
tonight stargazing? Or you spend 7 hours
doing other things, working your job,
but you know of of you know just being
present and in the moment. So I mean all
the things you you've mentioned about
you know the the the spirituality and
the meditation and breath work and
plant ceremonies which are like booming
right now and it like you know knowledge
is increasing about their their our
connection with the plants and and how
they can help us and and serve as a
medicine. And so this stuff is because
of these talks, because of these
podcasts and art and music and books and
everything is bringing this stuff back
to the table. So kudos to you as well.
Uh we're at the top of the hour. We're
going to go ahead and go to a quick
break and then we'll come back. Got a
bunch more questions for you, Paul. I'm
enjoying it so much, man. We'll be right
back. Thank you, guys.
Yeah, likewise. Thanks.
All right.
All right. I'll just take a quick pause.
Yeah, there's no sound here. Uh you guys
know what I'm saying though. I don't
know what's up with my computer, but you
guys know what uh what I'm saying.
Go buy the meditation. You already know.
Go to truthseeker.com.
Get the meditation.
This guy right here on camera said it a
lot better than I could. But that's what
this commercial is about. Sums up all my
audio right now. And just so you guys
know um
we're in the middle of a hurricane.
We're in the middle of a hurricane. Like
there's literally um
100 mile an hour winds uh gust but
uh back and forth outside. So I'm
hearing it outside my window.
Sounds pretty scary. We're going through
a hurricane right now, but uh we've got
the internet. We've got power. We're
making it happen. Uh Paul, we're talking
about your book Escaping from Eden. Um
enjoying it, man, so so far and uh
really excited to to dig into your work
uh because you you it's not a one-stop
shop. Like it's not just
you know this isn't your song and dance
and you ride off into the wind. Like you
have a lot of stuff that you're bringing
to the table when it comes to
spirituality, when it comes to uh what I
would say is true Christianity and
returning to the essence of living from
the heart as some would say and and and
many different aspects with that. And so
I'm uh
you know I like I said I I went to your
website whenever I got the email from
from your publicist or whatever to check
out your work and and I I do it a quick
quick you know 2-minute glance. I go and
say okay that that that okay that's a
great conversation. I've got questions
and literally that's it. Okay, let's
book it. It's going to be a great talk.
And so I had a quick you know synopsis
of what you were bringing to the
longer than me. So you must have been
learning at a really rapid rate through
your lifetime.
Well, I didn't you know I didn't do well
in school and um
I didn't I never learned how to study in
school. Like I just showed up and didn't
I don't know if it was ADD or whatever.
I couldn't study it didn't interest me.
And then when I finally
got born again and started reading the
scriptures and then all of this other
material
uh for the first time like studying
became a new world for me of